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The Ghost of Webcomics Present (27 comments)
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The Ghost of Webcomics Present

Saturday, December 24, 2005 - 10:50 AM

A lot of who I am today I owe to my family. My parents, especially, deserve some thanks because they never lost faith in me, even when I was a screaming selfish teenager with more emotional problems than Tara Reid. They always told me that I was capable of achieving whatever I set myself to (especially if it was medical school), and it is that lesson that has kept me going at what is often a thankless task for the last 8.73 years.

But it was my cousins that taught me about peer interaction and showed me the reality of how difficult it would be to operate outside the protective sphere of my parents. I've got (literally) tons of cousins. My father's side of the family took procreation very seriously. Two of them in particular (one of whom, I believe, is a daily reader of this strip, along with his son) took great joy in inflicting all sorts of mental anguish on me when I saw them. I was the patsy for thousands of gags and jokes, the constant monkey in the middle. They were (and are) physically and mentally bigger than me, and had (have) no qualms about using those things to their advantage. I remember their cruel laughs as though it were just last month (which, come to think of it, is was).

My cousins taught me three very important things. First, there is nothing as much fun as the mental abuse of a child. I dug it. It was challenging and pushed me to better myself in the hopes of outwitting my cousins some day.

Secondly, they taught me not to take things so goddamned seriously. If someone takes the ball away from you, it's a goddamned ball. Why cry over it? If you look closely enough, almost everything that's not friendship or love is just a ball. Things just aren't worth getting upset about in general.

And finally, they taught me not to take myself so seriously. They taught me that I was fallible, and I always would be (because they would keep on beating me -- either of them can easily hit 350 points in a Scrabble game), and eventually I became comfortable with the idea.

These three things form the bedrock operating principles for the way I interact with the world. I try to have fun, I don't let myself get caught up in things that would distract me from having fun, and I don't take myself (or anyone else) too seriously.

And because I'm mostly caught up in having a good time these days, sometimes I forget that the rest of the world does not work this way. Especially the World of Warcraft Webcomics.

That's not to say that folks in the Webcomics business are a bunch of sensitive, caring fern-waterers. Most of the webcomics artists I am friendly with seem to operate pretty much the way I do. Oh, sure, they take the art of producing webcomics pretty seriously, but the trappings associated with that -- reader communities, critics, conventions, interviews, promotion -- well, not so much. It's entertaining at first, and then you develop a disdain for it after a while. It becomes a necessary evil, some thing that distracts you from the much more serious work of actually creating a webcomic. Right now, I could be writing the scripts for this week, instead of this.

So when we launched Fleen, I thought I would use a fairly common webcomics modus operandi by stirring up the shit a bit. If webcomics journalism/criticism (when you're talking about art, you can't really separate the two, unless all you're announcing is anniversaries and con dates) has taught us anything, it's that the best way to get attention is to stand up and stab Caesar in front of the other senators. It's not like drawing a good comic every day is going to get you noticed. And the one thing that a critic likes to talk about more than anything else is himself.

And it worked. Fleen got prominent links from a number of webcomics blogs and websites. They almost universally praised it in concept and execution while my wrathful ramblings here on this site drew most of the ire away from Gary and Jeff. And I, in my perverted way, thought that this gentle teasing would in some way do some good for webcomics criticism, in that it would engender discussion and maybe even a little introspection. Because you need to play Monkey in the Middle for a while before you figure out the real way to play it.

I felt vindicated in our approach for a while. The fact that these outlets were so easily manipulated by the evil schemings of a creator who wasn't even writing for them certainly gave creedence to the idea that they might be compromised by someone with similar aspirations from the inside.

But that didn't last long. Something happened that I didn't expect. I felt bad about it. I felt guilty about what I had done. Who knew I had a conscience?

So, here I am to apologize, like my parents taught me to do when I was being bad. I did a few things wrong in my post.

  • I was mean.
    You shouldn't be mean to people if they don't deserve it. I didn't realize it when I was writing it, but there appears to be real venom in some of what I said. I don't take this stuff seriously enough to feel real anger towards any webcomics critics, and while some of them certainly deserve a bit of wrath in their stockings this year (most notably, the ones that use the aforementioned shit-stirring technique and the ones that forget not to take themselves so goddamn seriously), I didn't really mean to be mean, if you catch my drift. I'm a fiction writer primarily, so I write for effect and not for accuracy. On the whole, the webcomics press are nice people with good motives and many of you do good work most of the time. I am sorry that I was mean to you.
  • I was hyperbolic.
    I suggested that all sorts of folks should stop writing things, This was clearly ridiculous and should have been your first clue that I wasn't being entirely serious. There's room for everyone to write. Should people take the context of who their writer is into consideration when reading? Absolutely. Otherwise we'd let politicians anchor the nightly news. Is it okay for a politician to speak on an issue? It sure is. But if I know who their electorate is and who their corporate sponsors are, it makes me a more informed voter.
  • I was incorrect.
    I also claimed that all of webcomics journalism/criticism was poorly written and unprofessional. I won't kid you, some of it is, but to say that it is universally awful is doing wrong by the writers and the writing. Making blanket statements never helps improve the level of discourse.
Doing these things did a disservice to my thesis, which is that having a creator-only press is potentially unhealthy and damaging to webcomics in general and the webcomics press in specific. Doing these things buried the legitimate reasons for something like Fleen to exist (which by the way, is not for objective reporting -- objectivity and criticism don't mix. I never used the word objectivity once in my post). What I was trying to say was that there may be a conflict of interest in having the only souce of information come from creators. But all the bile-spewing turned the discussion from "is it healthy to have an all-creator press?" to "should people who are creators also be allowed to have a critical voice separate from their work?" These are two very different discussions, and I think that they likely have different answers.

So, folks, let's forget about objectivity, which we as adults know does not exist. Let's agree that everyone has the right to speak, and everyone else has the right to consider the validity of those words. Let's discuss the (non-)important things: is the webcomics press in a healthy state right now? Is recruiting people from outside the sphere of creators something we should be pursuing? Do we, the audiences of webcomics blogs, need to be wary of creator/critics in the same way we might be wary of a CNN movie review of a Time-Warner movie?

Again, I want to apologize to all of the webcomics journalists, critics and creators who were offended by my post. Next time I see you, please remind me that I owe you a drink.

Happy Christmas to all. And to all, a good night.

TCampbell
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Re: The Ghost of Webcomics Present (Score: 3, Funny)
posted Saturday, December 24, 2005 - 06:03 PM (#31086)
Great timing. I was on the road and didn't find out about this manifesto till now.

I'm still a mite peevish (though not really at you), because now I have to totally rework my thesis in THE HISTORY OF WEBCOMICS Chapter 7... the observation that all webcomics critics seem to be creators, and the dangers this might cause, was central to that chapter.

In other words, you've totally scooped me, and in the process, addressed one of the larger problems I see with the current practice of the form.

Well played.
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Lonely Goatherd
Lonely Goatherd
Re: The Ghost of Webcomics Present (Score: 0, Troll)
posted Saturday, December 24, 2005 - 09:52 PM (#31089)
I am sorely disappointed!! Yesterday you had a post that was fun, provocative and ridiculous. And today you have this guilty pool of glop that reads like a special episode of Friends.

I hope Fleen won't follow suit and lose it's bite. Negative criticism is one thing the current crop of Eberts don't have the stomach for, and it's an enormously useful nitch to fill. And the Fleeners seem to have a knack for laying out their objections, no apologies, no hemming and hawing.

True, some of the crankiness of Fleen so far is over the top, especially their attack on Oh No Robot of all things, and their humorless take on Joey Manley's masterful column. But it's important for critics to say what they think, even if it sometimes makes them look like idiots.

So Gary and Frank, or whatever the hell your names are, please take my advice-- STICK TO YOUR GUNS! Don't be like Rosenberg!!

--Joe Zabel
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jon
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Re: The Ghost of Webcomics Present (Score: 2)
posted Saturday, December 24, 2005 - 10:47 PM (#31090)
In Response to Lonely Goatherd (#31089):

Trust me, Josh, no one is more disappointed than I am. I thought I was as cold as steel.

Oh, and you spelled niche wrong.
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nerdrepublic
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Re: The Ghost of Webcomics Present (Score: 1, Flamebait)
posted Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 02:01 AM (#31092)
and happy goddamn chanukah, hanukah, chanukkah, hanukkah, etc., too! dammit.
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zamphir
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Re: The Ghost of Webcomics Present (Score: 2)
posted Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 07:09 AM (#31093)
In Response to Lonely Goatherd (#31089):

Frank?

You wouldn't like me when I'm frank.

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daubergoat
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Re: The Ghost of Webcomics Present (Score: 3, Pathetic)
posted Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 07:12 AM (#31094)
In Response to zamphir (#31093):

Schnitzel, however...
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zamphir
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Re: The Ghost of Webcomics Present (Score: 2)
posted Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 10:19 PM (#31100)
In Response to daubergoat (#31094):

Schnitzel, however...

You're just trying to give someone an opening to make a "balooney" joke, aren't you?

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Llamarama
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Re: The Ghost of Webcomics Present (Score: 2)
posted Monday, December 26, 2005 - 12:39 AM (#31102)
In Response to zamphir (#31100):

Balooney [markteppo.com]?
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Megatronman
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Re: The Ghost of Webcomics Present (Score: 1)
posted Monday, December 26, 2005 - 10:05 PM (#31109)
In Response to Llamarama (#31102):

Indeed.
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shovel_mage
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Re: The Ghost of Webcomics Present (Score: 1)
posted Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 04:24 AM (#31114)
The fact that you made a Tara Reid joke offends me. I demand a 3 page apology.

Okay, of course I'm joking, but I did find this post a bit rediculous. When you work in an industry as cynical as webcomics, you can't apologize for anything that might be construed as offensive.

Otherwise, you'll spend so much time apologizing that you won't have time to be cynical and offensive, which of course is the whole point of webcomics.
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RobNoxious
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Re: The Ghost of Webcomics Present (Score: 1, Insightful)
posted Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 08:19 AM (#31119)
For what it's worth, I've met Tara Reid, and I've met you. I find it hard to believe you were ever that F-ed up.

I may be biased, however, Tara never drew me a sketch.
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Lonely Goatherd
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Re: The Ghost of Webcomics Present (Score: 0)
posted Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 10:00 PM (#31141)
Angst, agnst, angst.

Fuck that, just go for the funny.
(your mother probably doesn't have internet access anyway.)

(Well, mine does, but then I don't do comics.)
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Kent_Allard
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Re: The Ghost of Webcomics Present (Score: 1, Incoherent)
posted Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 10:59 PM (#31147)
I actually have a friend that does not understand critisism.

What is really sad is, I married her.

I tried to explain that crickets could be killed by Pyrethrum, but that explains more where my mind is and less about critics.

Ignore the chirping.

(I think I read once that you can determine the temporature by listoning to Ebert, or is he the dead one?)

Also, ignore the misspellings, as I am old and fairly drunk (but in the morning I will be young.)

Bottom line.
I would vote this as just about the most surreal comic I have ever came across.
Keep dreaming then.
Phore, dreams, that would be the rub out, l33t dreams suite prints.
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mkinyon
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Re: The Ghost of Webcomics Present (Score: 3, Insightful)
posted Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 02:40 PM (#31163)
I thought I would use a fairly common webcomics modus operandi by stirring up the shit a bit.

And a beautiful job you did. I rarely read Burns, but I was compelled to check out his response [websnark.com] to your obviously contrived diatribe. It's perfect. You pushed every one of his buttons in exactly the right sequence. And today [websnark.com], he offers the absolution appropriate to your alleged mea culpa.

All that is needed now is for you to post something to the effect that your several year long experiment with free-content-plus-merchandising has failed, and that you will now be moving to a new model that involves taking hostages. Then the cycle will be complete.
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BoxJam
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Re: The Ghost of Webcomics Present (Score: 1)
posted Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 04:27 PM (#31164)
Yeah, yeah, everybody's right about everything.

I do think there's something to Jon's original post, though. Saying that you can be an artist or a critic only is too stringent, sure. But I do think that if you're wearing a 'critic' hat and the stuff you write about is mostly about the collective you're in, or you never write about comics from certain corners of the internet, you're a lot more biased than you could be.

In other words, you have the responsibility to get as close to objective as you can, given your inherent blindness.
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mkinyon
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Re: The Ghost of Webcomics Present (Score: 3, Insightful)
posted Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 05:57 PM (#31165)
In Response to BoxJam (#31164):

Maximizing objectivity is an option, not a responsibility. The only responsibility, by my ethical code, is to carry out what one intends to do or claims to do. If a Blank Label artist starts up a review blog in which he talks up Blank Label and ignores everyone else, that's fine, so long as he never claims to do more than that. Similarly, I know they intend much more, but if Gary and Jeff suddenly decide to write exclusively about Dumbrella or to ignore Keen, that's acceptable. Fleen says it is a "webcomic blog about webcomics". One can reasonably read that to mean about some webcomics, not about all webcomics, so they'd still be accomplishing what the masthead claims. On the other hand, if I start a review blog in which I announce that all of webcomicdom falls within my scope, then I would be violating my ethical code if I, for instance, limited myself to sites with free content.

Critics work on whatever interests them, just as they do if they also happen to have an artist hat. We readers can certainly be peeved at the choices they make, and even more peeved at those who don't accomplish in their criticism what they claim. We can also attempt to convince them of their failings. But in the end, their only responsibility to us is a function of how much we pay them. Their responsibility to themselves is a matter left to them. We vote with our browsers and leave it at that.
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Tangent
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Re: The Ghost of Webcomics Present (Score: 0, Stupid)
posted Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 11:39 AM (#31197)
Part of the problem is that Fleen is self-limiting. I've stated before that I believe that having worked in the industry gives a critic extra insight into webcomics as a whole. But Fleen's categorical refusal of "industry insiders" (whether they've tried to create a webcomic and failed, or if they're currently creating a comic) is putting blinders on.

Fortunately, it appears that you realize this and are specifically targetting this so to allow for a different perspective, rather than insisting that yours is the "only true way" (as your initial posting suggested).

Of course, in a sense you're also ignoring a potential source of critical commentary: the parody strip. If someone writes and draws a parody strip doing commentary on a webcomic (or the webcomic community), technically that's a webcomic and thus not allowed into Fleen.

What will be interesting is to see if you can maintain impartiality within Fleen. For instance, Kristofer Straub's recent "Checkerboard Nightmare" on Comixpedia is not impartial at the least, due to his apparent loathing of Keenspot, which in theory could be influenced by his own company being rivals with Keenspot.

(Fortunately, my own association with Panel2Panel.com isn't subject to influence by the ownership; I tend to tangent whatever catches my attention and will say good things about comics even if I personally don't like the people behind the comics... or will say negative things (it happens! *grin*) about comics I truly love when they need to be said.)

No doubt as your writers continue to post, they'll improve their style and content, and Fleen will hopefully become what you envision it.

Good luck!
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jon
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Re: The Ghost of Webcomics Present (Score: 2)
posted Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 01:53 PM (#31201)
In Response to Tangent (#31197):

Are you actually saying that Fleen is somehow doomed because it cannot accept submissions from Straub? As much as I like his work, it's not likely to tip the scales either way.

Newspapers seem to be able to review movies well enough without hiring movie directors to write the reviews.

As far as improving style and content, you may want to shine your keen light on yourself before accusing others of needing growth in that department.
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Tangent
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Re: The Ghost of Webcomics Present (Score: 0)
posted Thursday, January 05, 2006 - 05:19 PM (#31256)
In Response to jon (#31201):

Trust me, I'm not saying that you're doomed because you're not accepting submissions from Straub.

I don't think Fleen is doomed at all, as you've built up a writing cadre to submit multiple articles, of which each writer should attract different people interested in his style of commentary. Indeed, I pointed out that you're aware of some of these limitations and are in fact working to make these your strengths.

However, for example, the Political Cartoon has long been a part of the newspaper scene for Editorials and the like. But in theory you aren't able to post webcomic review-cartoons (which would be along the same venue) or the like, even from new submitters.

And I just find it odd that someone might be blacklisted from submitting stuff to Fleen just because in the past they wrote and/or drew a webcomic. It... well, it almost felt like you were prejudicing against people because of their past. If in fact you just mean submitters can't currently have comics running (which includes being on hiatus but intending on restarting a comic eventually) then that's a bit different.

As for my own lack of ability in writing... at times I start to suffer from burnout. The quality of my work declines during those times. But hey, even Eric's early works weren't all jewels. In time, his writing has improved. In time, my writing has improved and will do so moreso. And in time, your writers will improve their own abilities.

No insult was intended.

Take care!
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jon
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Re: The Ghost of Webcomics Present (Score: 1, Obnoxious)
posted Thursday, January 05, 2006 - 05:38 PM (#31257)
In Response to Tangent (#31256):

Robert, just because you're incapable of keeping up a pace of one inane blather a day doesn't mean that capable authors can't. I know what is involved in hitting a daily deadline as I do it myself. I also know that having daily content is integral to running a successful online publishing endeavor.

And in time, your writers will improve their own abilities.

You're not qualified to clean the dirt out from between the toes of the Fleen writers. Why don't you go back to completely missing the point of those PVP animations?

It... well, it almost felt like you were prejudicing against people because of their past.

What the fuck is this supposed to mean? Did you pull that out of your ass, or do you have some other orifice you like to keep your wild speculation in?

As long as we're coming up with baseless accusations, I suspect that you took all this a bit personally.

I suggest you go back to your parent's basement now. Your opinion is worthless to me.
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deerboy
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Re: The Ghost of Webcomics Present (Score: 2)
posted Friday, January 06, 2006 - 10:19 AM (#31273)
In Response to jon (#31257):

Now with diplomacy skills to go with those good looks!
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jon
jon

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Re: The Ghost of Webcomics Present (Score: 2)
posted Friday, January 06, 2006 - 10:45 AM (#31274)
In Response to deerboy (#31273):

I learned those skills from Tuminaro, actually.
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Tangent
Tangent

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Re: The Ghost of Webcomics Present (Score: 0)
posted Saturday, January 07, 2006 - 05:18 PM (#31293)
In Response to jon (#31274):

Well, Jon, you can feel however you want about it. It seems like you're taking umbridge with me because I'm not bowing down and calling Fleem the Next Big Thing in Criticism.

BTW, writing "a pointless blather" a day doesn't quantify "quality" now does it? I mean... pointless? Sounds like you're saying "without meaning" or... "valueless"

But please, keep digging yourself in deeper.
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gtyrrell
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Re: The Ghost of Webcomics Present (Score: 2)
posted Sunday, January 08, 2006 - 09:22 AM (#31294)
In Response to Tangent (#31293):

"umbrage [reference.com]" -4 spelling

"Fleen [fleen.com]" -4 spelling

But please, keep digging yourself in deeper.

Be careful about taking this argumentative approach with Jon; when you attempt to condescend towards him, it only makes him stronger.
 
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deerboy
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The, um, bridge too far. (Score: 2)
posted Monday, January 09, 2006 - 09:35 AM (#31299)
In Response to Tangent (#31293):

Umbridge? This is supposed to be some sort of 'writer'? In the quest to appear educated, we have apparently reached the, um, bridge too far.

In this case, I see that there is no reason to hold back on the mace.
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