Reintroducing Fleen (74 comments)
pages in this discussion: 1 2 3 next>>

Reintroducing Fleen

Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 09:28 AM

I'd like to reintroduce you guys to Fleen. For those of you have been around a few years, you may remember Fleen as one of the first tentative steps taken towards the foundation of a fully-fledged webcomics collective. The first members included folks like Keenspot CEO Chris Crosby, Scott Kurtz, Illiad, and of course future Dumbrellites Jeff Rowland and John Allison. We even almost managed to rope in Gabe and Tycho before the whole thing fell apart in a blaze of acrimony and accusation.

The basic idea was that webcartoonists, rather than competing with each other, should be sharinkg links and audiences. The Fleen website served as a hub for those links. In early 1999, this was a fairly revolutionary idea. We also had a mailing list where we could share ideas and discuss what, if anything, Fleen should become. The organization had a very loose structure (good for flexibility and avoiding toe-stepping), much in the same way that Dumbrella has now. What it didn't have was people who were capable of working together under such a structure -- something like that takes a degree of trust, and at that point I think only John and I had met in real life. Most of the other folks involved were faceless names to each other.

The lifeblood of Fleen was the sharing of traffic. When one of the higher-profile members decided not to participate in adding a drop-down linkbox to their homepage (also a revolutionary little doodad at the time), things began to sour. Then another prominent member decided that if that first person wasn't going to link, why should they link back? And then it all pretty much went downhill from there.

An argument could be made that the implosion of Fleen set the stage for the foundation of Keenspot, and later, Dumbrella. But we've already delved into history a bit too deeply, and I'm here to tell you about what Fleen has been reborn as today.

Webcomics journalism is in a pretty sad state. While a few websites devoted to webcomics news and reviews and discussion have sprung up, most of these have massive fatal flaws. The writing, for the most part, is the worst sort of amateurish fluff (which is not surprising since even professional journalists don't seem to be capable of writing a proper critical analysis these days). Posting schedules are erratic and sparse. The sites themselves are poorly engineered and violate most of the rules of usability. All these things are forgiveable. We, as an industry, are still finding our legs. Things like professionalism take time.

The one thing that is unforgiveable is that, almost without exception, all of these sites are run by and staffed by webcomic creators. They all have agendas, they all have friends they want to promote, they all have their own approaches to the artform that they want to see vindicated. These people are biased from the get-go. In the worst cases, webcomics bloggers have used their bully pulpit to launch their own nascent webcomics initiatives. This is the worst kind of journalism, the most terrible kind of comics crticism. It is the same sort of cronyism that has corrupted larger organizations like Fox News.

If these sites hope to have any sort of journalistic integrity, we must establish a divide between the creators and the people writing about them. The new Fleen is the first webcomics blog to attempt this.

The basic rules of Fleen are this:

  • None of the writers that appear on Fleen will ever be webcomics creators.
  • Posts on Fleen must be about webcomics.
  • I will not be allowed to tell the writers what they can and cannot write about (aside from the "posts must be about webcomics" mandate) . I will attempt to post my dissent in the comments, just like everyone else will be allowed to do. In some instances I may write them directly if the nature of my comments demands it (as you can also do), but they have every right to tell me to screw off.
  • I cannot fire a writer without the consent of a majority of the other writers.
  • Each writer must post at least one piece each day, Monday through Friday, with exceptions for things like childbirth and plague.
Fleen is launching with two writers. The first is Jeff "Zamphir" Lowrey, who has been reading webcomics for almost a decade now and is probably the single most prolific webcomics forum poster that I am aware of. The second is Gary Tyrrell, a volunteer with the CBLDF and one of the most insightful webcomics readers I have had the pleasure of meeting.

We hope to add one or two more writers over the upcoming weeks; I think a good blog should be the sort of thing that you can check a few times a day and find new content waiting for you. If you're interested in being a contributor, send us at least two webcomics-related sample posts and me and the writers will try and pick a couple of candidates from amongst the interested parties. The compensation is so small that you may not even notice it is there, but I promise you it will be a fun gig.

Hopefully, the new Fleen will serve the same purpose as the old one: to bring people to where the webcomics are at, and to foster discussion.

Finally, I'd like to call on all of the webcomics creators who are out there moonlighting as webcomics journalists (and vice versa) to pick a side. If you want webcomics and webcomics journalism to be taken seriously, you can't be doing both. It's like how my ex-girlfriend used to put on stage shows with her friends for her other friends -- cute, but certainly not professional and ultimately pitiable. And everything you write until you pick a side will be suspect.

Rich
Rich

Code Monk

From: Druggachusetts

Posts: 773

Registered:
Sep 2000
Re: Reintroducing Fleen (Score: 2)
posted Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 12:16 PM (#31007)
Let the moustache fight begin!

Congrats (?) Zamphir and Gary. I'll be looking foward to your contributions.

--
If I had any dignity that would be humiliating. - Adam Savage, Mythbusters
Locked profile
zamphir
zamphir

Code Monk

Posts: 5021

Registered:
Sep 2000
Re: Reintroducing Fleen (Score: 2)
posted Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 01:17 PM (#31013)
In Response to Rich (#31007):

I'll be looking foward to your contributions.

What's holding you back?
--
Ain't nobody here but us turkeys [youtube.com]
Locked profile
gtyrrell
gtyrrell

Code Monk

From: The Dystopian Future

Posts: 603

Registered:
Jul 2004
Re: Reintroducing Fleen (Score: 2)
posted Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 01:20 PM (#31014)
In Response to zamphir (#31013):

Why my colleague means to say is, we've been writing posts in advance of launch, and you can go read our stuff now.
 
--
I like the sense that a powerful man with a pony tail is lurking somewhere in the background of the site maintenance, ready to subdue criminals with a chair.
Locked profile www
Lonely Goatherd
Lonely Goatherd
Re: Reintroducing Fleen (Score: 0)
posted Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 04:13 PM (#31017)
I think your link to user friendly may be incorrect.
Locked
zamphir
zamphir

Code Monk

Posts: 5021

Registered:
Sep 2000
Re: Reintroducing Fleen (Score: 2)
posted Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 05:47 PM (#31020)
In Response to Lonely Goatherd (#31017):

It works for me.

Unfortunately.

--
Ain't nobody here but us turkeys [youtube.com]
Locked profile
Lonely Goatherd
Lonely Goatherd
Re: Reintroducing Fleen (Score: 1, Compelling)
posted Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 10:58 PM (#31029)
"Finally, I'd like to call on all of the webcomics creators who are out there moonlighting as webcomics journalists (and vice versa) to pick a side."

Fuck you, Rosenberg!:)

--Joe Zabel


Locked
daubergoat
daubergoat

Infinite Monkey

From: Due West of St. Paul

Posts: 215

Registered:
Jan 2003
Re: Reintroducing Fleen (Score: 2)
posted Friday, December 23, 2005 - 05:19 AM (#31032)
In Response to Lonely Goatherd (#31029):

Finally, a voice to match the face [goats.com].
--
"The doctors say one day I may even be able to feel my face again."
"Yeah, doctors say a lot of things."
Locked profile
daubergoat
daubergoat

Infinite Monkey

From: Due West of St. Paul

Posts: 215

Registered:
Jan 2003
Re: Reintroducing Fleen (Score: 2)
posted Friday, December 23, 2005 - 05:22 AM (#31033)
In Response to daubergoat (#31032):

So............. who's Joe Zabel?
--
"The doctors say one day I may even be able to feel my face again."
"Yeah, doctors say a lot of things."
Locked profile
Lonely Goatherd
Lonely Goatherd
Re: Reintroducing Fleen (Score: 0)
posted Friday, December 23, 2005 - 05:33 AM (#31034)
T.S. Eliot, John Keats, H.P. Lovecraft, J.R.R. Tolkien, Saul Bellows, James Joyce.

What do they all have in common? Writers of great literature who also wrote great critical works about literature.

Your premise is inherently flawed: the idea that critical responses to art require one to not be a participant in the creation of said art leads to stagnation and myopia. They do not have to pick a side to gain credibility. They merely have to provide credible work.
Locked
Lonely Goatherd
Lonely Goatherd
Re: Reintroducing Fleen (Score: 1, Informative)
posted Friday, December 23, 2005 - 06:55 AM (#31035)
In Response to Lonely Goatherd (#31034):

FYI, the Lonely Goatherd who wrote 31034 is a different one than me, but I am a dead ringer for "The Face."

--Joe Zabel
Locked
Lonely Goatherd
Lonely Goatherd
Re: Reintroducing Fleen (Score: 0)
posted Friday, December 23, 2005 - 09:54 AM (#31036)
In Response to Lonely Goatherd (#31034):

James Joyce was a huge asshole who did his best to pervert the English language into the stupid vision that he and only he could see inside his head. His books may have some artistic merit on their stories alone, but I'll be god-damned if I can get past what he did to the language to see what it is he was actually trying to SAY.

On the other hand, yeah, the rest of those guys were cool.

Speaking of stagnation, though, requiring a post every day from every writer may run your writers out of real things to say pretty soon, I dunno. Just seems... excessive.
Locked
zamphir
zamphir

Code Monk

Posts: 5021

Registered:
Sep 2000
Re: Reintroducing Fleen (Score: 2)
posted Friday, December 23, 2005 - 10:09 AM (#31037)
In Response to Lonely Goatherd (#31036):

requiring a post every day from every writer may run your writers out of real things to say pretty soon

That hasn't stopped me yet...

--
Ain't nobody here but us turkeys [youtube.com]
Locked profile
zamphir
zamphir

Code Monk

Posts: 5021

Registered:
Sep 2000
Re: Reintroducing Fleen (Score: 2)
posted Friday, December 23, 2005 - 10:10 AM (#31038)
In Response to zamphir (#31037):

Also, there are thousands and thousands and thousands of webcomics out there.

It is not possible to run out of webcomics to review , at a rate of one review a day.

--
Ain't nobody here but us turkeys [youtube.com]
Locked profile
Lonely Goatherd
Lonely Goatherd
Re: Reintroducing Fleen (Score: 0)
posted Friday, December 23, 2005 - 10:37 AM (#31039)
Both the things I wished to say have already been eloquently said, namely:

1) Plenty of critics work in their field and maintain credibility (and high standards of writing),
2) Requiring a post per day is like to burn out your writers.

I think the general idea and implemention are both great and I applaud the effort (i.e. Long Live Fleen!), but it wouldn't hurt to be less extreme.
Locked
Lonely Goatherd
Lonely Goatherd
Re: Reintroducing Fleen (Score: 0)
posted Friday, December 23, 2005 - 11:39 AM (#31043)
Ok, so your main beef is that most webcomics critics are also webcartoonists? This "taints" their criticism with a certain agenda? That's a huge heaping pile of effervescent turd.

Likewise, your premise that critics who abstain from creating webcomics themselves would naturally be free of this taint is also of an aromatic nature related to certain fertilizing compounds. There is absolutely nothing to prevent a non-artist critic from having an agenda or a closely-guarded handful of artists/comics he has a personal bias to promote or shower with personal affection.

I think you may need to reframe your main objection, which might work better as: The worst crime in criticism is to inflict your personal bias on a reader without first fully informing him about your own peculiar philosophies, obsessions, childhood traumas, and emotional manifestos.

This is very difficult to do, first of all because of the whole "cast out the 3000-year old giant sequoia redwood from thine own eye before removing thine neighbor's splinter" problem, and second, it's difficult to get to know a critic's personal peculiarities without a regular and consistent output to judge.

Which all harkens back to your plea for professionalism, which I understand and applaud. But I'm not sure I agree with your methods. Professionalism will come only with time, reflection, and maturity... not through misguided calls for "professional objectivity" in criticism, which is a little like the Sammy Haggar problem: it appears like he SHOULD be in Van Halen at times, but no, he really, really doesn't belong there.

Oh, and once a day sounds a little extreme. Unless someone were to treat it as a full-time job, fine, but from what I can see the compensation package is a little thin for that.

Darrin Bright
Locked
gtyrrell
gtyrrell

Code Monk

From: The Dystopian Future

Posts: 603

Registered:
Jul 2004
Re: Reintroducing Fleen (Score: 2)
posted Friday, December 23, 2005 - 11:54 AM (#31044)
In Response to Lonely Goatherd (#31043):

Oh, and once a day sounds a little extreme. Unless someone were to treat it as a full-time job, fine, but from what I can see the compensation package is a little thin for that.

The compensation package involves beer.
 
--
I like the sense that a powerful man with a pony tail is lurking somewhere in the background of the site maintenance, ready to subdue criminals with a chair.
Locked profile www
zamphir
zamphir

Code Monk

Posts: 5021

Registered:
Sep 2000
Re: Reintroducing Fleen (Score: 2)
posted Friday, December 23, 2005 - 11:57 AM (#31045)
In Response to gtyrrell (#31044):

And it's not thin beer, either.

--
Ain't nobody here but us turkeys [youtube.com]
Locked profile
demiurgent
Knackolyte

Posts: 21

Registered:
Nov 2002
Re: Reintroducing Fleen (Score: 1)
posted Friday, December 23, 2005 - 01:14 PM (#31047)
In Response to gtyrrell (#31044):

The compensation package involves beer. Jesus Christ -- now I'm jealous.
Locked profile
demiurgent
Knackolyte

Posts: 21

Registered:
Nov 2002
Re: Reintroducing Fleen (Score: 1)
posted Friday, December 23, 2005 - 01:15 PM (#31048)
In Response to zamphir (#31038):

True.

But not becoming repetitive in the process is hard.

Just as a word of warning. ;)
Locked profile
zamphir
zamphir

Code Monk

Posts: 5021

Registered:
Sep 2000
Re: Reintroducing Fleen (Score: 3, Funny)
posted Friday, December 23, 2005 - 01:36 PM (#31049)
In Response to demiurgent (#31048):

Thanks, dude.
--
Ain't nobody here but us turkeys [youtube.com]
Locked profile
gtyrrell
gtyrrell

Code Monk

From: The Dystopian Future

Posts: 603

Registered:
Jul 2004
Re: Reintroducing Fleen (Score: 2)
posted Friday, December 23, 2005 - 03:02 PM (#31052)
In Response to demiurgent (#31047):

Jesus Christ -- now I'm jealous.

We are looking for more writers. Submit two samples to the address Jon gave and maybe you'll hit the beery jackpot.
 
--
I like the sense that a powerful man with a pony tail is lurking somewhere in the background of the site maintenance, ready to subdue criminals with a chair.
Locked profile www
demiurgent
Knackolyte

Posts: 21

Registered:
Nov 2002
Re: Reintroducing Fleen (Score: 1)
posted Friday, December 23, 2005 - 03:29 PM (#31054)
In Response to gtyrrell (#31052):

I don't meet the criteria. ;)
Locked profile
themysticalone
themysticalone

Code Monk

From: Pennsylvanialand

Posts: 640

Registered:
Jul 2003
Re: Reintroducing Fleen (Score: 2)
posted Friday, December 23, 2005 - 04:03 PM (#31055)
In Response to zamphir (#31038):

I'd love to see you review a different every day, without repeating a comic until you've gone through, oh... 5000 of them. That could be fun.

Especially if you avoid Comics Genesis.
--
I like cheese. baldninja.com [baldninja.com] is my comic.
Locked profile www
themysticalone
themysticalone

Code Monk

From: Pennsylvanialand

Posts: 640

Registered:
Jul 2003
Re: Reintroducing Fleen (Score: 2)
posted Friday, December 23, 2005 - 04:05 PM (#31056)
In Response to Lonely Goatherd (#31043):

Also...

Wow, so many responses to Jon's news post along these lines. Really guys, Jon is just trying to increase his spot in the Persons in Webcomics list for next year. *wink*

That all said, I do enjoy the essays on Fleen so far.
--
I like cheese. baldninja.com [baldninja.com] is my comic.
Locked profile www
Lonely Goatherd
Lonely Goatherd
Re: Reintroducing Fleen (Score: 0)
posted Friday, December 23, 2005 - 08:03 PM (#31057)
Wow. Is this the second coming or just another blog?

If you were trying to transcend amateurish writing, you haven't made a good start. And if you're looking for disinterested journalists, maybe your forum thralls aren't the best recruits...
Locked
pages in this discussion: 1 2 3 next>>
Discussion: Reintroducing Fleen | Login/Create an Account | 74 comments
Threshold:  Locked
The Fine Print: The above comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Hell, let's face it, we're not responsible for anything; including the things we say, do, or think. And if you sue us because you think we are? Well, we're not responsible for that either.