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Webcomic Rippers: You All Suck (81 comments)
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Webcomic Rippers: You All Suck

in Controversy by jon

Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 05:39 PM

There are a handful of programs available for folks that allow them to scrape webcomics off of their respective sites and to view them in clumsy Visual Basic interfaces and whatnot. They're universally terrible, and the people that make them are bad internet citizens. They create these programs with the knowledge that they're hurting the creators of the strips they're enjoying, but they do it anyway.

Why does everyone publicize these projects? I've seen multiple posts about this issue lately on both Websnark and Comixpedia. I understand it's an emotional issue, but it's the same argument everytime; there will always be folks who think it is their right and responsibility to subvert webcomics and their associated revenue streams. Linking to them and giving them a soapbox only encourages them. They're wrong, we know they're wrong, they probably know they're wrong, conversation is over. Let's stop linking to these folks and start taking steps to limit the damage they're doing.

One way to do this is to recognize the points they've made -- there are people out there that, for reasons of laziness or bandwidth or what have you, are not satisfied with the way that they receive their comics (although I've never understood their logic myself -- is it really so hard to load up a webpage?). We shouldn't look at these poor, stupid saps as the enemy -- they are potential readers and customers. We should find a way to give them what they want without compromising what we're trying to do.

Goats does this via our RSS feed -- we invite folks to use their favorite RSS reader to subscribe to our feed and read the comics in their environment. We also include our news items in our feed, allowing RSS readers to take note of our various merchandising offers, donation drives and such. I'm sure advertisements could be included in the feed as well, if that's a preferable business model for some folks.

Doing this accomplishes two things: one, it gives folks what they want. And two, it takes the air out of the arguments that these types of scumbags keep presenting. The latest version of Firefox even has RSS functionality built right in. You don't even need an extra program. Certainly not one of those scumware comic readers.

There are some real limitations to doing business on the web, and there's no magic bullet to make people pay you for your work. Are there downsides to offering webcomics for free? Yes. These horrible programs, for one. But the upside is that you get to attract an audience and allow people to visit your site and fall in love with the comics you're creating. Many of those people will choose to support your endeavor. Making it easier for them to support you means listening to the things that they want and giving it to them in a way that benefits you both.

I call on all webcomic artists who are complaining about these rippers to do two things. First, stop linking to them, please. Second, add an RSS feed to your site and help eliminate the perceived need for these programs.

waider
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Re: Webcomic Rippers: You All Suck (Score: 1)
posted Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 08:45 PM (#20079)
Do any of these rippers thoughtfully offer a useragent string or respect (hah!) robots.txt? If so, run 'em off the lawn. Send 'em packing.
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Lonely Goatherd
Lonely Goatherd
Re: Webcomic Rippers: You All Suck (Score: 0)
posted Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 09:24 PM (#20080)
Shut up, pussy. Anyone who makes "webcomics" should be glad people actually want to see their shit.
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unFalln
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Re: Webcomic Rippers: You All Suck (Score: 2)
posted Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 09:58 PM (#20082)
Speaking of Firefox having a RSS feed reader, and being a Microsoft whore, intraVnews [intravenews.com] also offers an Outlook addon to download RSS feeds as if it's normal email.

I don't mean to plug, and I'm not in any way associated with the program, but I've found rss with goats to be really cool and thought making useful rss readers known could only help your cause.
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unFalln
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Re: Webcomic Rippers: You All Suck (Score: 3, Funny)
posted Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 10:02 PM (#20083)
In Response to Lonely Goatherd (#20080):

And, you know, the world would be a much better place if we didn't have to constantly look at your shit. Especially when it just keeps oozing out of your brain.

That's some fucked up digestive system you have there.
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Iocus
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Re: Webcomic Rippers: You All Suck (Score: 1)
posted Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 10:23 PM (#20084)
In Response to unFalln (#20083):

Hah, digestive system... I actually laughed out loud when I read that...

And to the unregistered guy before, why the quotation marks around Webcomics? They're not just something Jon made up, you know?

- ][ocus
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demiurgent
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Re: Webcomic Rippers: You All Suck (Score: 2, Informative)
posted Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 11:37 PM (#20085)
Just a fast note from the Websnark guy. John's right. Next time, I ignore the thing entirely.

And for the record, I'm in Ithaca this weekend. The Chapterhouse is looking a bit run down at the moment, and Buffalo Street is torn up again. Also, many businesses on the Commons have failed.

So, you know. Same old Ithaca. I've missed this place.
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demiurgent
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Re: Webcomic Rippers: You All Suck (Score: 2, Compelling)
posted Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 12:57 AM (#20086)
In Response to demiurgent (#20085):

Er, Jon.

I've had a lot of beer.
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JoshM
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Re: Webcomic Rippers: You All Suck (Score: 1)
posted Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 03:28 AM (#20088)
In Response to Lonely Goatherd (#20080):

Pussywillow.
Whenever I hear that word I think of Willow the movie.
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Roadwaffle
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Re: Webcomic Rippers: You All Suck (Score: 1)
posted Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 06:19 AM (#20090)
Um... I used a frame from a strip in some message board thing
( http://viewaskew.com/theboard/viewtopic.php?t=1566 2 )
  is that ok? Or am I the bastards you're talking about?
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Lonely Goatherd
Lonely Goatherd
Re: Webcomic Rippers: You All Suck (Score: 0)
posted Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 09:58 AM (#20091)
In Response to Lonely Goatherd (#20080):

You're a retard. Please do us all a favor and go jump off something high.
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jon
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Re: Webcomic Rippers: You All Suck (Score: 2)
posted Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 10:01 AM (#20092)
In Response to waider (#20079):

Do any of these rippers thoughtfully offer a useragent string or respect (hah!) robots.txt? If so, run 'em off the lawn. Send 'em packing.

Some, but not most. 'Cause that would defeat the purpose, right?
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zamphir
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Re: Webcomic Rippers: You All Suck (Score: 2)
posted Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 10:01 AM (#20093)
In Response to Lonely Goatherd (#20091):

That's not a favor.

Someone would have to clean that up.

Pills are the way to go!
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jon
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Re: Webcomic Rippers: You All Suck (Score: 2)
posted Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 11:34 AM (#20094)
In Response to demiurgent (#20085):

Was there ever a time when the Chapterhouse didn't look run down?

Have some popcorn and a pint for me.
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jon
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Re: Webcomic Rippers: You All Suck (Score: 2)
posted Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 11:36 AM (#20095)
In Response to Lonely Goatherd (#20080):

Shut up, pussy. Anyone who makes "webcomics" should be glad people actually want to see their shit.

See, you're just proving my point. If you had been using one of those webcomic rippers to read my strip, you would have missed out on this post and the opportunity to call me a pussy.
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tynic
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Re: Webcomic Rippers: You All Suck (Score: 3, Funny)
posted Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 11:40 AM (#20096)
In Response to jon (#20095):

... and personally, that's an opportunity I live for.
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Good lord. [byrobot.net] What?
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melquiades
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Your solution is right, your insults are not (Score: 1)
posted Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 11:53 AM (#20097)
Hooray to Goats for having an RSS feed!

A lot of web comic author complain about these comic readers, but few have actually taken the time to think about why they're popular. The RSS feed is a nice solution, and it's a way of putting your money where your mouth is, so to speak. You're doing exactly the right thing.

The right thing for the comic readers to do now would be to build an option to display RSS feeds instead of isolated images for sits that provide it.

However, you guys really, really, really need to cut the all playground name-calling about how scummy and vile the people who write these programs are. Hurling insults helps nobody -- if you want these people to respect you, you should respect them.

It's particularly galling that you call your own readers "poor stupid saps" for liking the alternative method of looking at your page. Earth to Goats: these programs wouldn't be popular if there weren't a good reason that people like them! However much it upsets you, however much it upsets your plans, however much it seems to you like a personal insult (which it is not), you should take your readers' needs seriously. We are not stupid.

(For the record, no I do not use any of these comic reader programs, thank you very much.)
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FeldmanSkitzoid
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Re: Webcomic Rippers: You All Suck (Score: 2)
posted Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 11:54 AM (#20098)
I actually thought about making one of these programs at one point, but a few things stopped me: I don't know how, I'd be ripping off the artists, and I don't have the time.

Have any of these programs ever attempted to include your ads or news posts or other stuff?
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tynic
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Re: Your solution is right, your insults are not (Score: 2)
posted Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 12:01 PM (#20099)
In Response to melquiades (#20097):

It's particularly galling that you call your own readers "poor stupid saps"

(For the record, no I do not use any of these comic reader programs, thank you very much.)

If you don't use them, then he wasn't talking to you, and so there's no need to be offended.

And the readers who do use comic rippers are a) ripping Jon and Phillip off, so Jon probably doesn't care about offending them, and b) won't see the news post anyway, so it's irrelevant.

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melquiades
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Re: Your solution is right, your insults are not (Score: 1)
posted Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 12:20 PM (#20100)
In Response to tynic (#20099):

And the readers who do use comic rippers are a) ripping Jon and Phillip off, so Jon probably doesn't care about offending them...

Well, that's my point. The comic author mentality is always "These scum are ripping me off!", without a hint of "Gee, those things are popular ... maybe I can learn something from this."

Like when video tapes came out, the movie industry was all up at arms, saying they'd go out of business, there would be no more movies made because they wouldn't be profitable, etc. They were so hot under the collars, they actually tried to sue the VCR out of existence.

Let me repeat that, so it sinks in: the movie industry sued to make VCRs illegal.

Of course, once they got over being all pissed of at these horrible, evil people making VCRs who were thieves and scumbags and trying to drive them out of business, some bright fellow figured out that there was a huge market in home rental, and now the movie industry makes more money than ever.

So why am I worked up? Because there's a legitimate idea in those comic readers, flawed though they are. Because that idea is one that artists can own if they learn from it (as Goats is trying to do with the RSS feed). And because (being an artist myself), I'd really like to see a useful discussion of new and creative content delivery ideas and the reader experience in general, but insult-hurling makes useful discussion nearly impossible.

Anger is a blindfold. If we can contain the emotions enough to have an intelligent discussion, who knows? Interesting ideas might emerge.
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themysticalone
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Re: Your solution is right, your insults are not (Score: 2)
posted Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 12:57 PM (#20102)
In Response to melquiades (#20100):

You miss a point though in that the movie industry suing VCR companies was a stupid stupid thing because vcrs provided and aobvious way to make them MORE money. VCRs would make it difficult for them to actually rip off the movie companies in the first place.

These programs allow some readers to completely bypass the author's means of comic-related income. They offer no way for the authors to increase income.
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melquiades
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Re: Your solution is right, your insults are not (Score: 1)
posted Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 01:42 PM (#20103)
In Response to themysticalone (#20102):

You miss a point though in that the movie industry suing VCR companies was a stupid stupid thing because vcrs provided and aobvious way to make them MORE money.

No, you miss my point.

It's only obvious to you now that VCRs are an income source for movie makers. At the time, it was not obvious at all. The film industry was sure that people would tape movies off TV and thus be unwilling to pay for tapes, or movies in the theater. This was their argument to the supreme court -- taping off TV will destroy us -- and the court bought it! (They found VCRs legal for time-shifting [museum.tv], however.) The movie industry really did think VCRs were a serious threat.

My point is, it's obvious in hindsight, but it wasn't obvious at the time. The movie industry was too angry and too defensive to see it. Just like comic artists are right now.

These programs allow some readers to completely bypass the author's means of comic-related income. They offer no way for the authors to increase income.

Well yeah, duh, that's why we're having this discussion. They're flawed, no doubt about it.

But it doesn't have to be that way. I'm convinced that a little creative thinking and willingness to collaborate would make comic readers a great revenue source. How? I don't know. But I believe there's a solution out there, just as there was with the VCR. That's why we need a poison-free environment for discussion.

And here's the real kicker: the author of Comictastic wrote what I thought was a very level-headed and reasonable open letter [comictastic.com] to comic artists in which he basically begs the artists to tell him how he can help them make money:

"I am more than happy to work with cartoonists to help them develop new sources of revenue through my software, but thus far, I have never been contacted with any such proposal, and the e-mails I sent some time ago to several popular web cartoonists were either turned down cold, or ignored."

He makes some good arguments about learning from the popularity of the comic readers, and even offers a specific compromise, which to my knowledge Goats is the only comic to accept:

Add an RSS feed to your comics. Observe the incredible success of RSS in the news and blog sectors—people love them! It's easy, it's fast, and best of all, the author controls the content of the feed. ... I am more than willing to add support for RSS feeds to Comictastic, if cartoonists are willing to provide the feeds. In the feed, you could put ads, plugs for your merchandise, and of course, the comic. If a significant portion of your readership switched to these feeds, the benefits could be huge: less bandwidth usage and a larger group of happy regular readers.

For this letter, he was roundly spit upon and insulted by artists -- even though his letter was, though indignant, roundly respectful and uninsulting.

It was when I saw that reaction that I grew angry with comic artists. Here this guy says, "Tell me how I can make my software make money for you!" and they respond with "You are human filth." At that point, the artists lost the moral high ground in my view. At least Goats is trying, even if they're still spitting on him.
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zamphir
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Re: Your solution is right, your insults are not (Score: 2)
posted Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 03:05 PM (#20104)
In Response to melquiades (#20103):

he basically begs the artists to tell him how he can help them make money

When? Before, or after, he'd stolen all the cows in the barn?

Cause if it's after... "Hey, I stole all your cows, but I know you've got some more coming later. If you help me figure out how to resell your cows for you, then I won't have to steal them again." And you think he shouldn't have been insulted for that attitude?

And, also, if he'd bothered to look at ANY of the websites, he would have seen all of the various ways that they generated revenue. So he shouldn't have had to ask. He should have written his software to include the necessary information to allow the artists to continue to make money - and if he didn't, that was because he was thinking of his own revenue first and theirs second. Again, not an admirable attitude - "I don't care if I'm making money at the expense of others, I still want money."

I'm personally on both sides of this issue - I think comic artists should be able to make money off their work AND I think software developers should be able to make money off THEIR work, and both do this regardless of content (subject to applicable laws).

I also don't buy the argument that bandwidth is being stolen by these programs. In fact, these programs generally use less bandwidth than loading the full webpage. And they also use that bandwidth for the purpose it was intended - to deliver image content to readers.

Stealing content, stealing revenue by removing ads... sure. I'll buy both of those. But not bandwidth.
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unFalln
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Re: Your solution is right, your insults are not (Score: 2)
posted Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 06:34 PM (#20106)
In Response to melquiades (#20103):

I seems to remembers this entire conversation somewhere before, except Jon was trying to be nice about it and not simply chucking about insults. I gets the feelings that Jon is pissed off because this is not the first time he's had trouble with it, despite his efforts to improve the situation.

Jon is not the bad guy here. He and Phillip started the rss feed even before these webcomic rippers became a problem. They ripped him off, told him it was his problem for not making it easier, he then pointed out his rss feed, and they then just ignored him.

I don't understand how Jon isn't able to vent his frustration when he takes all the necessary steps to help these guys out, yet they continue to steal his readership. What does he have to do?

For this letter, he was roundly spit upon and insulted by artists -- even though his letter was, though indignant, roundly respectful and uninsulting.

As far as I'm aware, the program that the guy made was not marketed as an rss feed reader. It ripped images off a site. What happens in Goats case where he has a feed but the program continues to steal just the comic? "Oh yeah, I'll put a feedreader in my program, and it'll work as long as my users don't use my program the normal way."

And the biggest problem with the program was not that it was ripping webcomics off, it was that it was making money by ripping webcomics off.
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jon
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Re: Your solution is right, your insults are not (Score: 2)
posted Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 09:29 PM (#20107)
In Response to melquiades (#20097):

I'll address this point-by-point.

However, you guys really, really, really need to cut the all playground name-calling about how scummy and vile the people who write these programs are.

Why? It's fun. You obviously haven't spent much time here. This is what we do. Professionally, even.

Hurling insults helps nobody -- if you want these people to respect you, you should respect them.

Respect is earned, not deserved. They've done nothing to earn my respect. And frankly I don't care if those scum-sucking bastards respect me or not.

It's particularly galling that you call your own readers "poor stupid saps" for liking the alternative method of looking at your page. Earth to Goats: these programs wouldn't be popular if there weren't a good reason that people like them!

My readers are the ones that either view the site here at the website or through the RSS feed. The people you're talking about are not my readers. They're parasites.

And if they were our readers, they'd laugh it off because they understand our sense of humor and they know that we're doing it to make a point.

However much it upsets you, however much it upsets your plans, however much it seems to you like a personal insult (which it is not), you should take your readers' needs seriously.

We do. Which is why we put the RSS feed in place.

We are not stupid.

Clearly you haven't been hanging out on our message boards. :)
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Hadlock
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Re: Webcomic Rippers: You All Suck (Score: 2, Intriguing)
posted Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 09:31 PM (#20108)
I'd pay about $15 a month for a subscription to read 25+ webcomics daily (or psuedo-daily for the non 7 day a week comics) through a web comic gatherer.

I spend about an 35 minutes a day reading online comics. If you average out my viewing habits, that's about how much time I spend watching movies on my $21/month netflix account. If I could get all "my" comics either emailed to me daily, or accessed on a single web page, or through an application that is so despised by the artists, that would save me probably 10 minutes a day, as I could let it load in the background while I was checking my email or some such.

A sort of online syndication, if you will.
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