[pedantry]

Inspired by the new additions to the "Monkeys" thread, I've decided to ask everyone's opinion on the following.
Basically, at my residential college, before dinner, 4 times a week, we say what is supposed to be a "non-denominational Grace" (as we are International House). The wording is as follows:

For all good things we give thanks and ask for blessing on this house.

As a sort-of atheist/Buddhist, I don't really have a problem with the Grace per se, but I reckon that by giving thanks and asking for blessing, this automatically invokes some kind of higher being, the most usual/likely one being the Judeo-Christian-Islam God. I think that in some ways, there is something philosophically out of joint with wording a "non-denominational" Grace at a non-denominational college in such a way. In some ways I think it would be better not to have a Grace and leave it up to people to say grace themselves if they want to (which some people do anyway).

Someone suggested to me that the reason that we're saying grace is so that we're grateful that we have sustenance in times when a large proportion of the world's population is starving. However, I don't think that the current form of the Grace emphasises this point enough/at all if that's what they're driving at... I can't think of a decent alternative to the wording of the Grace though.

Any thoughts?? Philosophically, wordingly or otherwise?

[/pedantry]

I think it's reasonably well worded.

There's nothing about it that puts any strictures, forms, or requirements on who or what you are asking for blessings FROM.

It does not necessarily imply that you are suplicating yourself before a unary theism. You could be requesting-as-a-peer for the plenary blessings of a multitude of other beings. You could even be asking for each other's blessings, or the blessings of your food.

In Response to zamphir (#12146):

I hope it's the blessings of my food... I mean, it's gotta be good for something, why not blessing people?

I think that it's whatever you make of it. If you want to be offended you will and if you want it to be the only long-haired white guy in the middle east, or some fat little man blessing your stuff, it will be.

Personally, if it were me, I wouldn't participate because group chanting bothers me. But that's just me. I also change the channel when something annoys me instead of trying to get it taken off the air.

Well what would you as "a sort-of atheist/Buddhist" say before you sat down to a meal? I don't know what the Buddhist theology teaches. A nutshell overview might help enlighten we Judeo-Christian believers.

In Response to Rich (#12176):

what the Buddhist theology teaches. A nutshell overview might help

Very roughly - the aim of life is to transcend the material universe and achieve Nirvana. This is done by contemplation, denial, and realisation of your inner godhood. More detail than that depends on exactly which Buddhism you are talking about.

One rather nice thing about Buddhism is that it recognises that other religions can be used as paths to the same transcendance. Makes for a wonderfully inclusive, tolerant mindset.

Cheers,
Graham

a sort-of atheist/Buddhist

Now, it's been a very long time since I've studied any of this, so I speak out of pure curiosity. However, I was under the impression that Buddhism was more of a form of omnitheism, believing that everyone is a god or has a little bit of god in them.

Anyone have any sort of Buddhist quick reference lying around where we can check into these principles without extending any actual effort?

In Response to stilllwaiting (#12185):

Well, there's various forms of Buddhism, as Graham mentioned, so beyond such broad truisms as 'inner godhood' it's a matter of which one you're looking at.

If you'd like a specific example, Zen Buddhists are often divided over whether everyone contains Buddha nature, or is Buddha nature. The finer implications of this... well, it's been a bit since I've read it, but "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" is the resource I'm thinking of. By Shunryu Suzuki-roshi, or at least collected from a number of his talks.

Keeping in mind that this is a somewhat Westernized version - Suzuki-roshi founded a lovely little Zen center in California - it's actually quite accessible if you already understand the basics of Zen Buddhism.

In Response to stilllwaiting (#12185):

I was under the impression that Buddhism was more of a form of omnitheism, believing that everyone is a god or has a little bit of god in them.

The belief that there are no external gods, only our own awareness projected on the universe, seems pretty atheistic to me.

Where Buddhism and atheism normally differs is that atheists normally accept the material universe, while buddhists seek to transcend it.

Which, I guess, makes atheists lazy buddhists...

Cheers,
Graham

The following is, without question, the coolest grace ever. And it manages to completely bystep religion completely. It's a song, and unfortunately (or fortunately), this forum doesn't have sound, so you can't hear the melody. But here are the words:

Thank you for this food, this food,
this glorious, glorious food.
And the animals
And the vegetables
And the minerals
that made it possible.

It's a round, so if you're in a large gathering you can really get into it.

It's by Patricia McKernon, but I haven't been able to find any recordings for it anywhere. I think it's still works in the text, but it's wondrous when sung.

That being said, I'd like to address your other questions. I think that offering thanks and asking for a blessing implies the presence of an "other" and definitely one of the spiritual persuasion. As someone who is Jewish I can understand how prayers that use a religion-specific label for a higher being can make someone feel uncomfortable. I don't know if I can translate those same feelings when it's a prayer that is refering to a non-specific higher power.

If you were a pure atheist, then it's possible that any reference to a higher power would rub you the wrong way. But if you describe yourself as a somewhat Buddhist, then part of that would be a belief in something more or greater than what you are. It's not just an awareness that others can't eat, it's an awareness of the gifts that we have. Even if all we are is a freak combination of protein molecules from a few billion years ago, that's some combination, and one we should be very thankful for indeed!

I think what can be useful about any kind of blessing/grace before eating is entering into a state of mindfullness. It's too easy for the parts of your day to be smeared together. Grace is a moment where everyone together acknowledges that they are coming together to eat, a once very meaningful event which has been made less meaningful because of the ease with which we can now attain food.

Mindfulness is something that is dying in our culture. Consumerism is its replacement, and individuality is its medium. I think it's fine for everyone to "do their own thing" but I also feel that's happening too much now. It's nice to do things with other people as a unified group.

We sing the grace I offered above at the group Thanksgiving I attend every year. Even though we're pretty hungry when we sing it, we take the time to go through a bunch of rounds with it, as ultimately we are feeling the most pleasure and happiness from being together.

Anyway, sorry to be so long-winded. Must be the holidays getting to me.

In Response to zamphir (#12146):

Indeed. Even if you don't believe in the existence of some higher power or being, surely you believe in the farmers and ranchers who provide the food that you consume. Certainly there can be no offense taken in thanking those who till the earth for their bounty. As for a blessing, unless you are also an Objectivist as well as an atheist/Buddhist, you could ask for a blessing, if only implied, from those with whom you break bread.

The practice of sharing a meal with friends, family, and compatriates is the most ancient of sacred rituals. To invite someone to share your table, or being invited to share the table of another is the most tangible form of peace currently available in this world.

Myself I'd say that grace sucks pretty bad.

Firstly you are forced to say grace? That is kind of against the principle I'd guess... To me saying thanks for food implies that there is a specific entity _you_ are thanking because you _want_ to. Saying it aloud means you want to let others know that you are thanking that entity.

So I'd probably be rocking out with a bit of rending my clothes and wailing good and loud about my unworthiness for the food and company etc just to piss them all off for their pointless authoritarian crap.

If I was sober and seeking to avoid attention I'd probably mouth their junk and then actually just have a wee quiet think about stuff to myself.

Mind you I find any open declaration of anything religious to be a little bit disturbing. It's kind of like a female on one of those Bachelor shows mentioning how strong and independant she is, you just know that you have entered dangerously weak areas in a persons psychological makeup...

As a fellow Buddhist I understand your dilemma. Although Buddha taught tolerance of all beliefs/religions/faiths, I too would probably be uncomfortable in that situation. Although the grace does not specifically mention any deity, I believe it goes along the lines of "in the spirit of which it was given." I won’t suggest to you to simply “sit down and take it” but I do think you should find a way to satisfy yourself. If that means accepting it or requesting that it be changed, what is important is that you feel comfortable again, and I think only you can decide what that is.

On a side note: The teachings I practice were handed down through the family, and my father has been less than generous with details. I believe he has followed the rule of “If you do not ask the question, I cannot give you the answer” ever since he came to this country. However, he has been more open about it since his mother died and he became a monk for the ceremony.

In Response to Phobos (#12349):

I do think you should find a way to satisfy yourself

But, surely, you aren't suggesting she do that at the table?

I believe he has followed the rule of “If you do not ask the question, I cannot give you the answer”

Must not be Mahayana, then, cause their rule seems to be "Ask no questions, and we'll tell no lies."

But I'm not a Buddhist. Nor am I a non-Buddhist, either... ;-)

In Response to zamphir (#12351):

But, surely, you aren't suggesting she do that at the table?

I, personally, am not fond of disturbing other's meals, so no. =)

But I'm not a Buddhist. Nor am I a non-Buddhist, either... ;-)

Whoa... whoa... way too philosophical for me here...

In Response to Phobos (#12354):

Whoa... whoa... way too philosophical for me here...

How can anything be too philosophical for a Buddhist? Let alone zen jokes?

Cheers,
Graham

In Response to albionsoft (#12361):

Well, you know, when you walk around in a state of spiritual enlightenment all the time, sometimes you just want a break from everyone asking you about what the sound of one hand clapping is.

I like to think of it as "transcendental fatigue". No relation to what you get when you deal with too many circular and logarithmic functions (think e and pi).

In Response to tor (#12340):

Hmmm... you know that gives me an idea. You know, one of those ... ideas. Those rebellious ideas. You know, one of the ones where you start wearing a beret, growing your leg hair and speaking in Argentinian Spanish. And then you turn up to formal dinners wearing nothing but your underwear under that blasted academic gown and then and then... you start a revolution based on the fact that they take the milo away after 8:30, the time that EVERYONE NEEDS IT! You start exclaiming "vivo el revolución!" whenever people ask you how your course is going and change your code name to "the Blue Sparrow".

Man, I gotta do that sometime.

In Response to snipergirl (#12365):

Oh yeah, and go on "Extreme Makeover" and go on about what a sexy bitch I am.

In Response to albionsoft (#12361):

Let alone zen jokes

That wasn't a Zen joke.

Neither is this.

>;-)

In Response to snipergirl (#12365):

you start a revolution based on the fact that they take the milo away after 8:30, the time that EVERYONE NEEDS IT!

When I looked up "milo", it said, sorghum. That can't be right, can it? What's a milo, really?

In Response to snipergirl (#12366):

If you descended further on this path, then Femme Eye for the Butch Dyke would get on your sorry derriere.

In Response to Deathalicious (#12382):

What's a milo, really?

Could it be: Malaysia's favourite chocolate drink [milo.com.my] from MILO energyCity, the sports city of the future?

Ask Dr. Internet, [google.com] I swear to god (or buddha or yo mamma or whoever) that it says that; the sports city of the future. Pure comedic gold.

Keep in mind that "nondenominational" does not mean "secular". The reciting of grace is a request for "unmerited divine assistance" [1], which implies belief in some sort of divinity. So a nondenominational Grace, which nonspecific, is still a religious act. I suspect that to actually make the Grace secular, it would need to drop the blessing clause.

However, I don't see this as being any sort of proselytization or endorsement and the only way to take the religion completely out of Grace is to take Grace out of the picture altogether.

--

[1] This is very concise wording from Merriam-Webster.

In Response to wendigo (#12390):

take Grace out of the picture altogether

Which, all in all, is not a bad idea. At least, given her sense of fashion, it's not.

White shoes! After Labor Day!! The horror.

In Response to wendigo (#12390):

I wish I had mod points to give you. Good job, especially for a newbie.