If it's got Elvis Costello [cnn.com] on it.

I know there are "theorists" and "critics" who feel that just because Elvis Costello played at the CeeBeeGeeBee during a certain period of time, that must mean he was punk.

But it's always been a marketing ploy.

friggen fraggen rickety rackety.

At first, I thought "Hey, Johnny Rotten doesn't like it. How bad can it be?".

But no.

At least it's not K-Tel producing the album.

Elvis is certainly more punk than the Talking Heads (also included on the disk and frequently associated with the CBGB thingy). At least Elvis used to be angry and irreverant. David Byrne can only be called 'askew' at his most upset.

In Response to deerboy (#9803):

Elvis is certainly more punk than the Talking Heads

You're baiting me, aren't you?

In Response to zamphir (#9805):

Actually, no. However, all of my pictures seem to be confused. Do I have to prove that I am creative?

Please explain to me how the TA LKI N GHE ADS are PU NK. Cause I really don't see it. Looks like you have fallen for the CBGB trap as well. Is 'Oh-Oh love comes to town' more punk than 'Radio,Radio'?

I promise I will not bait you again. Too damn easy.

In Response to deerboy (#9808):

I'm not saying the Talking Heads are punk.

I completely disagree with the CBGB trap. Heck, I don't really think Patti Smith was punk.

I'm just trying to understand how Elvis Costello was could be more punk than someone. Except maybe Debbie Gibson.

In Response to deerboy (#9808):

My cousin played there once, and he works for a bank. Does that make banks punk?

In Response to jon (#9812):

Does that make banks punk?

Only if you use them to start a fire in something much larger.

In Response to jon (#9812):

DIY banking with no training?

That's called a mattress in a shack.

In Response to zamphir (#9811):

Now you are baiting the world. You just compared the punkitude of Elvis Costello with Debbie Gibson? Sure, he's not punk, but you definitely have been listening to Alison a few too many times. Does 'angry young man' ring a bell?

Lets end this dispute impartially. AMG (do the link yourself) gives us these 'styles' for

Elvis Costello:"Rock & Roll, Singer/Songwriter, Punk, New Wave, British Punk"
That's exactly 0.40 Punk.

Debbie Gibson:"Fun, Playful, Sweet, Happy, Cheerful, Amiable/Good-Natured, Exuberant, Carefree, Innocent"
Total of 0.0 Punk

Now some more:

Talking Heads:"College Rock, American Punk, New York Punk, Album Rock, Post-Punk, Pop/Rock, New Wave"
0.42 Punk

Patti Smith: "New York Punk, Album Rock, Proto-Punk, Hard Rock"
0.5 Punk

The Clash: "British Punk, Hard Rock, Punk"
0.67 Punk

The Ramones: "College Rock, American Punk, New York Punk, Punk"
0.75 Punk

Sex Pistols: "British Punk, Punk"
1.0 Punk

This questions the methods
Blink 182: "Punk-Pop, Post-Grunge, Punk Revival, Alternative Pop/Rock"
0.5 Punk

But here is retribution
The Police:"Album Rock, Pop/Rock, New Wave"
0.0 Punk

And to finally put it all to rest
Avril Lavigne:"Teen Pop, Adult Alternative Pop/Rock, United States of America"
0.000000000 Punk

There is the science project for the day. As we can see, Debbie Gibson is no punk, and Elvis Costello is more punk than Debbie Gibson. Proving you correct. However, Elvis is also more punk than Avril and the Police, who have tried to call themselves 'punk' at some time or another. So Zamph is wrong. The Talking Heads are indeed MORE punk than Elvis, proving me wrong.

Top punks are Sex Pistols, Ramones, and the Clash, in descending order of talent (like it should be)

Any questions? Is that long enough?

In Response to deerboy (#9816):

does that rating include the first album done by the police when they were under the heading of a "new punk band" and tried to be like the clash?

You know what is punk? Crab City Rockers [goats.com]

Crab Crab, Crab City Rocker!

However, Jon thinks its funny, turning revolution into Money [goats.com]

In Response to deerboy (#9839):

Are you saying that Greeley was a Crab Rocker?

Greeley was a Crab Rocker?

I mean, I knew he sailed the wide accounting sea.

In Response to deerboy (#9816):

Now you are baiting the world

Like I wasn't before?

Sure, he's not punk
Then, having agreed with me, stop arguing.

but you definitely have been listening to Alison a few too many times.
I think "once" counts as too many.

Does 'angry young man' ring a bell?
Yes. As a marketing ploy. He never had the guts to get really angry.

Lets end this dispute impartially. AMG (do the link yourself)
These guys are journalists. So they don't know what they're talking about. In addition, they aren't impartial by any means.

But since you've already agreed with me that Elvis Costello is not punk, I'll stop arguing.

In Response to zamphir (#9844):

they aren't impartial by any means
I'm not sure why you say that, just because they have links to purchase music from their affiliates right next to the reviews. Sure seems like they have my musical interests in mind.

In Response to zamphir (#9840):

Well, if accountants are punk, then surely banks are punk. So Jon, there is your answer. Yes, banks are punk.

In Response to zamphir (#9840):

That was my favorite part of any Gilliam-associated film, really.

Does that make me a bad man, a good fan of puns, or both?

In Response to zamphir (#9844):

I can't fathom anyone being remotely familiar with Elvis Costello's work and arguing that he wasn't angry. Just because his anger was smarter, more tempered, and more nuanced than a lot of the three-chords-and-five-words bullshit that was coming out of the majority of the "punk" bands of the time doesn't mean he wasn't angry -- at the music industry, at the perfidy of women, at the perfidy of men, at manipulative businesses and Margaret Thatcher and mindless partying and basic human stupidity. If you ask me, that kind of anger carries many times more weight than the dumbass ranting of the majority of punk bands.

Now, is he "punk"? I suppose it depends on the definition of the word. If it's a matter of chronology and influences, it's hard to argue against it -- his first album was in 1977, and he certainly wasn't following any of the other dominant musical trends of the time. As for anger, well, I think it's self-evident. The Attractions possessed (and used) considerably more technical skill and versatility than the majority of punk bands (the Clash being one of the few exceptions I can think of at the moment); I suppose that if you're counting "plays with the fury of a herd of stampeding wildebeests (and almost as much talent)" as a qualification, then no, he's not punk...

Bottom line is, it's a meaningless distinction. I happen to be a huge fan of Elvis Costello and fairly-ambivalent-shading-toward-disdainful regarding "punk" as a general concept; you, I take it, are opposed to Costello and in favor of punk. Hence, you seek to distance the two concepts and I could really care less; I suppose someone who held the same opinion of both would be arguing in favor of Costello as a punk. I mean, I don't suppose the distinction would work if the argument couldn't be made (e.g. I hate William Wordsworth and I hate disco, therefore Wordsworth is disco), or if the argument was self-evident (I mean, nobody's going to argue that the Clash weren't punk no matter _what_ they think of them), but in a case like this, I really think it's pretty much a matter of preference.

In Response to TheMooseKing (#9965):

I can't fathom anyone being remotely familiar with Elvis Costello's work

Neither can I.

I really think it's pretty much a matter of preference.

Yes, exactly.

"plays with the fury of a herd of stampeding wildebeests (and almost as much talent)"
You seem to be confusing "talent" with "skill", or possibly "training". Talent is the thing that shines through a lack of skill, where it's called 'potential', and doesn't shine through any amount of skill or training, where it's called 'wannabe'.

Vanilla Ice had tons and tons of producers and musicians with talent and training to help him. But his stuff is and has been crap simply because he has no talent of his own. Michael Jackson had tons of talent as a young lad, and it got replaced by skill (and freakishness).

But punk is more than just "expressing anger through music", just like 'bluegrass' is more than just "playing a banjo, really fast".

it's a meaningless distinction
No, it's not. Because Elvis and all these other guys who really aren't "punk" are going to continue to get cited as being "the roots of punk", the music industry and the pundits are going to continue to be able to ignore all of the real revolutionary stuff, and simply never (re)publish it.

How many of the acts on this Rhino record never went on to produce a 'pop' hit for a major label? Is anyone ever going to republish any of the lost Happy Flowers albums? A compilation of 45's from Archie Brown & The Young Bucks? Is there going to be a reunion tour for Nuclear Assault when they're 70? Will it get shown on MTV? Heck, what are the chances of The Dead Milkmen getting a reunion tour - when they even *had* a big hit?

In Response to zamphir (#9844):

See. If you listened to some Elvis Costello you might even have a sense of humor. Plus you would know what good music was was well.

Yeah, you are right, the only problem with my methods is the fact that AMG are jounalists.

Do you ever get the feeling that you've just been taken?

In Response to deerboy (#9995):

If you listened to some Elvis Costello you might even have a sense of humor.

People tell me I'm funny all the time.

Plus you would know what good music was was well.

I know good music when I hear it.

Do you ever get the feeling that you've just been taken?

No.

Do you know where your wallet is? Are you sure?

In Response to zamphir (#9998):

People tell me I'm funny all the time.

Is that in a "God that looks funny!" or "Something smells funny" kind of way?

In Response to evilaltor (#10016):

People tell me I'm funny all the time.
   
Is that in a "God that looks funny!" or "Something smells funny" kind of way?

Why would I bother to ask? It's obvious what they mean when they say it, so any facts would only muddle the issue and might hurt my sensitive artistic soul.

In Response to zamphir (#10022):

artistic?

In Response to kornz (#10027):

What?

Oh. I'm sure it's just your dyslexia kicking in again.

You must have meant 'autistic?'.

And no, I'm not.

In Response to zamphir (#10029):

<man_getting_hit_in_groin_with_insult>
ouch!
</man_getting_hit_in_groin_with_insult>

In Response to evilaltor (#10033):

Psst... you should've said 'How appropriate... you fight like a cow!'

When it comes to injuring with insult, I learned from the best.