Finally got around to seeing Matrix Reloaded last night, and I figured it would be a good thing to have a place to discuss the movie with other folks who had already seen it, specifically all the revelations at the end.

First, off I want to say that I thoroughly enjoyed it. I didn't have high expectations, so that might have helped. But overall it was fun to watch, beautiful to look at, and it took the story in interesting directions. It's not a complete movie in and of itself, but I'm looking forward to seeing the next one to answer all the questions it's left.

So, If you haven't seen it, and you don't want to be spoiled, stop here.

Still with me? Okay.

• First off, I just want to say that It took me until this morning to figure out that the Council (the old people the run the show) were the individuals chosen by the previous One to repopulate Zion. I know, I'm a bit slow. But it's pretty obvious when you put the pieces together -- the councildude is evasive when Neo asks him why there are no young people on the council, councildude is all wishy-washy about the machines, they're all very intent that The One be given support to complete his mission -- it's because they're essentially Nazi collaborators. I'm not saying they're evil; they're probably doing what they think is best in a bad situation.
     
• So, like, is the Oracle bad now? It certainly didn't seem like the Architect liked her all that much, but she did send The One to the source to essentially aid in the re-destruction of Zion.
     
• Did anyone get the details on the way the Architect handles The One situation? I got the general gist, but a lot of the details were lost on me. Why bother repopulating Zion? Is it essentially just a big gambling chip for them, to use as leverage when a One pops up?
     
• I could go on, but these are probably good starting points.
     

I want to disagree with you about the Council being left over from the last repopulation. They don't look 100 years old. They don't even look like they're 100 years older than when they were "freed". "Future geriatrics technology" - blah blah blah.

And I can't really believe that they would be accepting of the fact that Zion would be destroyed if the One did the "right" thing.

On the other hand, I can't disagree with you. It's a movie, and that's exactly the kind of stuff writers put into movies to be 'deep'.

I think one of the really really important things about the Architect's behavior is that last bit where Neo blasted the Sentinals in the "real" world. This means one of two things: a) Neo's in a Dark Dream, b) The One represents the first step in an evolutionary jump that merges man and machine in a new way, more holistic way.

If it's the first, then everything the Architect was doing was a sham ala Phillip K. Dick.

If it's the second, I have to believe the Architect knows it, even if Neo doesn't, and is SCARED of the power the One has.

This would also explain the collusion of the Council. They participate in the whole sham of Zion and the One in order to help prevent this coming evolutionary jump.

And I don't think that Agent Smith is a red herring.

In Response to zamphir (#5822):

First off, I don't think the future geriatrics technology thing can be written off that easily. Advanced technology has been shown; you have to assume there's lots more.

And I don't think it's that they're accepting of Zion being destroyed; I think they realize that it's the better of two situations they've been presented with (wiping out Zion followed by eventual repopulation, or extinction).

Your "dark dream" theory seems to be the popular one, from what I've been reading. Many people seem to be of the opinion that the whole of the "real world", i.e. Zion, is just another Matrix, a honeypot to essentially keep the .1% of people who reject the Matrix busy. By giving them a way out, and the illusion of the "choice" to fight, they cease to be a problem.

Neo, on the other hand, is in the .1% of .1% that can see through all the layers. He's the one that can make real choices, rather than fall into the illusion of choice, like the jaded Merovingian would have him believe is all that exists.

Occasionally wiping out Zion every 100 years would also help reset the odds on this sort of thing happening, like the six previous times (so the Merovingian was an older version of The One, yes? One that ended up making the choice to go along witht he Matrix's plans?)

Kinda hokey, but it explains a lot, such as why Smith was able to posess a real-world body, and why Neo was able to stop the sentinels (unless, of course, that was just the EMP that the folks in the other hovership were discussing -- the timing could be a large coincidence, fooling Noe and the others into thinking that he was able to do it -- but that would be a major copout).

I'm beginning to geek out here, but I'm just going to go with it.

What if The Matrix is actually designed to generate someone like Neo, and all the "generating electricity using human bodies" is just a cover (which would also take care of the shoddy physics involved in that scenario)? What if he's the end result of a larger program run by people we haven't even met yet?

I'm convinced that this is all worthless conjecture, though -- there's no point in even thinking along this path, since nothing can be proven. Probably best just to wait for the third film.

In Response to jon (#5823):

First off, I don't think the future geriatrics technology thing can be written off that easily. Advanced technology has been shown; you have to assume there's lots more.

And I don't think it's that they're accepting of Zion being destroyed; I think they realize that it's the better of two situations they've been presented with (wiping out Zion followed by eventual repopulation, or extinction).


Right. I said I couldn't disagree with you, even though I wanted to.

Your "dark dream" theory seems to be the popular one, from what I've been reading. Many people seem to be of the opinion that the whole of the "real world", i.e. Zion, is just another Matrix, a honeypot to essentially keep the .1% of people who reject the Matrix busy. By giving them a way out, and the illusion of the "choice" to fight, they cease to be a problem.
I think regardless of whether or not it's another Matrix, Zion is regarded by the machines as a honeypot. The Architect explicity said as much, something along the lines of "another point of control".

As to Smith being able to possess a real-world body, I think that's a straight forward consequence of the technology they've shown. How is that any different than being able to upload the ability to fly a helicopter? It doesn't require any additional trickery. Once that socket into your brain is wired for input, you're vulnerable. In fact, it's no different than convincing someone that they're eating steak.

What if The Matrix is actually designed to generate someone like Neo, and all the "generating electricity using human bodies" is just a cover (which would also take care of the shoddy physics involved in that scenario)? What if he's the end result of a larger program run by people we haven't even met yet?
The thing that would be really really hokey is if they peeled the onion completely, ala The Thirteen Floor - i.e. an infinitely recursive dark dream.

I'm convinced that this is all worthless conjecture, though -- there's no point in even thinking along this path, since nothing can be proven. Probably best just to wait for the third film.
Well, if the Hype is to be believed, then the Video Game might have a lot of answers that a) we don't have to wait til November for, b) won't BE in the third movie.

As for whether the conjecture is "worthless" or not, depends on if you're having fun I say. It's like arguing about world peace over beer. You're never going to *actually* solve anything, you're just looking to have some fun.

For those curious, I've taken 'dark dream' from The Hacker and the Ants. [amazon.com]

In Response to zamphir (#5824):

As to Smith being able to possess a real-world body, I think that's a straight forward consequence of the technology they've shown. How is that any different than being able to upload the ability to fly a helicopter? It doesn't require any additional trickery. Once that socket into your brain is wired for input, you're vulnerable. In fact, it's no different than convincing someone that they're eating steak.

You're absolutely right; I hadn't considered that.

The thing that would be really really hokey is if they peeled the onion completely, ala The Thirteen Floor - i.e. an infinitely recursive dark dream.

Unless they come up with a really good explanation for the deal Neo pulled with the sentinels (perhaps he has built-in WiFi) and for why the machines tolerate Zion at all, they may end up having to do that.

Well, if the Hype is to be believed, then the Video Game might have a lot of answers that a) we don't have to wait til November for, b) won't BE in the third movie.

If you don't mind me taking off another week to play the game, I'm up for that. If anyone actually finds out any interesting information frmo playing the game, I'd be interested in hearing what it is.

I also suspect there may be some nifty details in the Animatrix.

A few good links with background analysis and such:

• Transcript of the Architect's conversation [geocities.com]
• Fairly good analysis of the philosophies and ideas behind the story [corporatemofo.com]

I think I'm finally beginning to "get it". I'm liking this movie more and more as it sinks in.

In Response to jon (#5825):

The thing that would be really really hokey is if they peeled the onion completely, ala The Thirteen Floor - i.e. an infinitely recursive dark dream.

Unless they come up with a really good explanation for the deal Neo pulled with the sentinels (perhaps he has built-in WiFi) and for why the machines tolerate Zion at all, they may end up having to do that.
I think the answer will end up being something akin to built-in WiFi - but I think it will end up being less straight-forwardly technical, and more spiritually mumbo-jumbo-ish. That's kinda what I meant about a man-machine evolutionary jump.

And again, the machines appear to tolerate Zion because it is a control point - a honeypot. It gives them somewhere to put the people who otherwise would be causing open rebellion inside the Matrix. They then periodically clean it out every 100 years, at just before the point where the people of Zion are able to really make a nuisance of themselves.

I must say, I am still trying to mull through the movie, and I think I may need to see it again. I'm glad to hear someone say they like it more the more they think about it; I refuse to have an opinion until I see the third one. Like LOTR, the immediate mediocrity of the second can be erased by the third. So since I have nothing intelligent to say, I have a facetious observation instead.

I can't take any sex scene seriously when the people involved have plugs in their skin. Somehow, it ruins the mood...

Oh, and was anyone else bothered by the blatant (bad?) cgi in some scenes? esp. with Smith in the park, neo always looked more like a computer game than real, and I can't decide if it's intentional, or not quite good enough cgi, and I tend to go with the second. Thoughts from someone who is more technically inclined?

In Response to jon (#5826):

Ken Mondschein has too much time on his hands, and is not working in the field he got his advanced degree in.

That said, he has some good thoughts.

In Response to jon (#5825):

Jeff: As to Smith being able to possess a real-world body, I think that's a straight forward consequence of the technology they've shown. How is that any different than being able to upload the ability to fly a helicopter? It doesn't require any additional trickery. Once that socket into your brain is wired for input, you're vulnerable. In fact, it's no different than convincing someone that they're eating steak.

Jon: You're absolutely right; I hadn't considered that.

Smith taking over a human is different than learning a helicopter program while plugged into the Matrix. It appears that Smith completely overwrites the man's brain and replaces it with a copy of Smith. Up until that point all knowledge was added to a person's brain--at least while they were in the Matrix. Besides what Neo did to the Sentinel, it has not been established there is residual knowledge of the skills learned while in the Matrix after a person exits.

In Response to jon (#5825):

Oh, and why are people coming up with the 100 year timeline for the recent rebirth of Zion? In the Architect's speech (conveniently linked by Jon below) the only mention of such timeline is in the editor's notes. I've only watched Reloaded once and don't recall a timeline mentioned.

In Response to Oedipa_Maas (#5833):

Ooooo. Nice pedantry.

I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you, though.

Quote: "Whoah. I know Karate."

Point 1: There hasn't been any indication that skills uploaded once go away. There has never been any showing of them reloading skills for each uplink.

Point 2: There haven't been any scenes, except possibly the end scene in Reloaded, in the real world where they NEEDED the skills they learned. So we don't know for sure.

In Response to zamphir (#5835):

Pedantry is fun.

"I know Kung Fu." [matrixfans.net]

Rebuttal 1: While they may not lose the uploaded skills, are the skills they learn in the Matrix applicable when they are out? Morpheus may know Kung Fu, but his methods are not realistic outside of a computer program. I'd like to see him try a spinning back-kick on a Sentinel.

Rebuttal 2: We only see the characters use the skills they learn while in the Matrix. When Cypher comes out of the Matrix, he does not use Kung Fu to fight Tank or Dozer, which may have been an effective method against the brothers since, as natural-born humans, they could not accept uploads.

(Interesting side note: the operators we've seen are only children of Zion.)

Missing Point: We have not seen the software completely overwrite a brain. Information has only been added.

In Response to Oedipa_Maas (#5837):

Kung fu, Karate... 110, 111 - whatever it takes...

Combo response:
Morpheus knows how to perform a spinning back kick. That spinning back kick operates under different laws of physics in the Matrix and in the real world. And, as you say, using Kung Fu against a giant robot squid is not very effective - what with the metal and the grabbing and the glaven. Similarly, Cypher does not use Kung Fu to fight Tank or Dozer - cause they were both bad mofos that woudl have kicked his bald little ass into dogfood (with or without uploaded skills). Plus, a) it was a confined area, b) he needed the element of suprise, c) he's a coward.

We know erasure of information is possible - otherwise Cypher wouldn't have been tempted. Remember, he wanted to FORGET the real world. That would have, for the most part, required rewriting large sections of his brain. Also, consider the red and blue pills. Remember that one function of the blue pill was to allow Neo to forget it ever happened.

There's still no compelling technical impediments given the things they've shown that REQUIRE something new to allow Agent Smith to take someone over.

In Response to Oedipa_Maas (#5834):

In the rave scene Morpheus said a couple of times "We have been here for a hundred years!"

In Response to jon (#5823):

What if The Matrix is actually designed to generate someone like Neo, and all the "generating electricity using human bodies" is just a cover (which would also take care of the shoddy physics involved in that scenario)? What if he's the end result of a larger program run by people we haven't even met yet?

I assume you stayed through the credits to see the revolutions teaser trailer....which shows that Smith is going to have an even more important role in the upcoming film. Perhaps the matrix doesn't exist to create Neo, perhaps it exists to create agent Smith? I already think that the 'real world' is still within the Matrix and that Neo and perhaps everyone else 'outside' are rogue programs...perhaps intentional to facilitate the development of Agent Smith...the rogue-super AI hellbent on destroying humanity (and having the inquisitiveness and resourcefullness standard agent programs don't) to be released in the real-real-world with appropriate armies.

In Response to Dynedain (#5845):

Ah, thanks. It seemed odd for Jeff to mention it as well as the guy that posted the Architect conversation, but I couldn't recall a time we received that information.

That said, it doesn't seem possible for the council to be the 23 rescued people unless those rescued few were humping and reproducing like bunnies and freeing a ton of people from the Matrix at a rapid rate.

By the way, has anyone figured out the significance of the split of the sexes in the 23 selected people? And why is he only allowed to select them from the Matrix? Could he select an individual who has been in the real world and in the Matrix (i.e. Trinity, Morpheus, etc.)? Can we skip a few months so November arrives sooner?

In Response to zamphir (#5838):

Morpheus knows how to perform a spinning back kick. That spinning back kick operates under different laws of physics in the Matrix and in the real world.

Right, they learn these skills in an alternate environment. Because of that, are the alternate environment uploads usable or applicable outside of the Matrix? Other than Neo, we've not been shown they are.

Good points about the erasure or partial rewiring of the brain. Both of those examples, however, showed a rewiring while the subject resided and remained in the Matrix. What would have happened if Cypher were taken out of the Matrix again after he forgot the real world? It’s hard to say.

Agent Smith found an abnormal ability as a result of his interaction with Neo. I believe Smith even mentions this specifically to Neo before the Burly Brawl. Smith may have become a fairly powerful hybrid of human and program. What Smith did by coming out of the Matrix seems well beyond his program's original functions and can't be written off as something anyone or thing can do with the Matrix.

In Response to Oedipa_Maas (#5851):

Right, they learn these skills in an alternate environment. Because of that, are the alternate environment uploads usable or applicable outside of the Matrix?
Except that Neo has to be specifically trained to use the skills differently in the alternate world than how he believes they operate in the world. He learns the "real world" skills, and then has to be trained to apply them as alternate world skills. Jump!

I think the facts still add up to Smith not being able to do anything new - OTHER THAN VIRALLY COPY HIMSELF. The fact that anyone *remembers* what occured in the Matrix when they leave means that anything they learn in the Matrix (regardless of what it is - a skill, a fact, a prophecy...) remains when they leave. The situations we've been shown may not provide specific examples, but I think it's clear.

Again, I belive it's the "convert an existing Matrix entity into a copy of Agent Smith" that's the new trick, and not "replace a human entity with a program entity".

In Response to zamphir (#5852):

I guess we'll find out in November.

In Response to jon (#5826):

These movies rule.

The annotations of the Transcript are interesting, but I have to disagree with a few points, and in some places it jumps to quickly to conclusions.

The first thing to remember is that the Architect is Neo's enemy and is trying to control him. Not everything he says can be assumed true. Most notably, whether the Zion "real world" is real or not, the Architect needs Neo to believe that it's real, so of course his comments imply that it is.

This is consistant with the Oracle's handling of Neo. In Morpheus's words, "There's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path." (But in this case, we're talking the path the Architect wants Neo to walk.)

Speaking of the Oracle, the Architect has reason to make Neo think she's against him; to make Neo lose hope. He probably knows Neo already has doubts about the Oracle, so it's a logical point of attack. Not to mention, he never explicitley says he's talking about her; he just lets Neo believe.

(This, to, is consistent with the Oracle's handling of Neo. Best I recall, she never said "You are not the one". She said "you already know what I'm going to say" in much the same way she talked about him being in control of his destiny. Neo said "I'm not the one", she said things that let him believe that, but she never actually said it.)

So again, maybe the Oracle is the enemy and maybe she isn't.

The machines are maintaining control using the illusion of choice. In terms of the human reaction, the illusion of choice is as good as real choice.

So, what happens when a human rejects the Matrix? Is he or she dumped from the program and immediatly a free mind? Doesn't look that way. Neo rejected the program, but he still grew up in the Matrix. His rejection took the form of the "splinter in his mind" that Morpheus talked about in the first movie, causing him to seek out the truth.

I've been saying since I first saw the original movie that if I were the machines, I'd build a two-layer system. That provides the illusion of choice. Why wouldn't the 1% reject the Zion-real world? Distraction; they believe they're already choosing to fight the system. Just becaues they've rejected the program doesn't mean the necessarily know when they're in it.

But I'm not decided. There are several ways they could go, and Zion may or may not be real.

It was strongly suggested, IMO, that Neo is not in the real world at the end of the movie. It isn't clear what this means, but as I'm typing this I have a theory that's growing on me. One that implies that Zion is indeed real.

What if: when the team exited the Matrix, the machines somehow trapped Neo's mind, letting him think he'd returned to reality when in fact he had not. The rest of the team awoke normally.

The machines then project upon Neo the illusion that his ship has suffered a catastrophic attack. They want him to believe that Trinity is dead so that he'll lose hope and comply with his "function".

But Neo notices something's wrong; "something's different this time, I can feel them".

Then we cut to a scene with some of the crew standing around Neo, who's in some sort of coma. The coma would be because he never came out of the Matrix.

(We're meant to believe the coma is a result of his encounter with the machines, but I'm not sure about that. Was there anything in the scene to show that the crew experienced the attack on the ship? I honestly don't remember.)

That Neo didn't exit the Matrix this time -- but had been in the real world every previous time -- would explain what was different and why Neo hadn't previously been able to use his powers in the real world.

Of course, another explanation would be that the Zion "real world" is still part of the simulation, and that Neo could've used his powers there if his mind had recongized it as such. The difference, in that case, would be that his mind somehow was brought to the awareness that this wasn't real either.

W...

Read the rest of this comment...

It doesn't take much work to construct an analogy where the machines represent tyranical governments, enslaving the minds of their citizens by pulling an illusion of one world over their eyes to conceal the real world, and thereby using the people as the source of their power.

People not freed from the system are part of the system. Most are dependent upon it and will fight to protect it.

A Utopian Matrix failed outright. Other designs were attempted, and ultimately a fairly democractic-sounding model arose (in which people choose, at a subconscious level, to be part of the syatem). The small minority of dissent then builds up momentum that could bring the system down, so controls are in place to keep them in check.

Thus Neo talks about a world "without boundaries, without controls. A world without [the machines (governments?)]" at the end of the first movie.

Sounds a bit anarchist, then? Well, I think that's where the elder's speech fits in. Zion, he says, is plugged in to this other system of machines. Simpler; mostly life support. When they discuss control, he says "we could smash them to bits, but we'd have to think what would happen to our electricity, our water, our air..." Perhaps he's talking about the distinction between minarchy and anarchy. We may have a measure of control, but free as we are we are dependent and therefore limited.

What's his point? Old men don't waste time making points.

But it does play well into the "freedom vs. illusion of freedom / choice vs. illusion of choice" theme, which can be traced back to Cypher in the first movie (in rough terms).

In Response to mea37 (#5858):

the machines somehow trapped Neo's mind, letting him think he'd returned to reality when in fact he had not.

This is what I meant by "Dark Dream". It's a common plot device in virtual reality fiction.

how can they ever know they've reached the real world?
This is a cheap trick. It's exactly what made The Thirteenth floor such a bad movie. It's a simple variation on "But it was all a dream..." - and means that the writer is either way too stoned, or couldn't think of a good ending.

However, your comment about the coma being a result of Neo still being in the Dark Dream, and not as a result of him blasting the Sentinals is good. It also allows them to bring back Joe Pantoliano in a way that doesn't end up being just as hokey as "it's all a dream" - even though it is all a dream. He's a construct.

Personally, I believe that the scene with Neo blasting the Sentinals should be taken literally. The abilities of "The One" are fundamentally about controlling the machines - that's why he's able to fly when the others aren't. He's able to control the Matrix, rather than merely ignoring certain parts of it.

In Response to zamphir (#5861):

That wasn't Joey Pants at the end; that was the guy that Smith took over when he crossed into Zion.

Unless you're talking about a hypothetical situation.

In Response to jon (#5866):

I guess I had heard that Joey Pants (but not to his face) was coming back. But maybe I'm wrong.

In Response to zamphir (#5861):

This is a cheap trick. It's exactly what made The Thirteenth floor such a bad movie. It's a simple variation on "But it was all a dream..." - and means that the writer is either way too stoned, or couldn't think of a good ending.

"Couldn't think of a good ending" assumes that the decision wasn't part of the premise from the beginning.

It's quality in a plot is beside the point, though. I'm not suggesting that the Matrix is embedded in an endless regression of virtual worlds (although I still maintain that a 2-level system, while it may not be what the machines are using, is strategically sensible). The point is, after you'd been deceived all your life about the nature of reality, how would you convince yourself you were in the real world even once you were?

(It might be argued that Neo could distinguish the difference, as it seems he did at the end of Reloaded. Everybody else would be pretty much stuck deciding whether to believe Neo.)

As for "it was just a dream": The biggest problem I have with such stories is that they spend effort developing plot which they then throw away. If the Zion world were, in fact, not real, there are two directions the story could go: It could be used as a way to discard loose ends or adversities in the plot, which would suck; or it could continue the plot properly onto a scene encompassing the Matrix, the Zion world, and the real world. Like anything, it really depends what the author does with it.

An example of a bad direction to go: The Zion world is also fake, and there is no man-vs.-machine war. The war is just a part of the simulation, which serves some other purpose altogether. (Worst-case scenario: VR game.) Based on the quality of the story thus far, I have faith that they won't pull any such BS regardless of whether the Zion world is real.

It's been a while, but as I recall, what made the Thirteenth Floor a bad movie was the fact that it sucked.