A great editorial letter [thenation.com] from the folks over at The Nation.

It's amazing how dissent has become equated with traitorousness in a nation founded on open debate of ideas and freedom of speech.

SHHH!!!!!!

They [fbi.gov] might [cia.gov] hear [secretservice.gov] you [whitehouse.gov]!!

We don't want them to hear you. What would we do without your deliciously devious dissentive disseminating diatrab depicting diabolical discharing during drab donnish discourse?? [goats.com]

These thoughts are not well formed

Think of "mass nation generalisation"

Americans likes to think the French suck and are the humorous receivers of the worlds hatred.

Americans tend to ignore the fact that, in actuality, Americans are disliked more than any other nation in every country I have lived in (only 4 I must admit).

Now consider the theory that wars are only popular amongst a nations populace when the nations economy is growing stronger. (which I don't even have proof is correct, just an idea I picked up somewhere).

Apply that idea to the differences between Desert Storm and the impending operation. Look at the amount of dissent in the American populace. Look at the amount of dissent in all the other nations leaders except Blair (and wtf is with that?)

Now think about exactly what is going to happen after you destroy the head of a nation, a guy who has been surrounded by the cleverest (slyest?) and most power hungry people in that nation. These of course are a bunch of people who, through evolutionary type forces, have become very good at surviving the capricious turns of the world. Uhh who are you going to put into power? Assuming of course that you don't actually _want_ the country for your own living room etc... and want to project some kind of "benevolent force for the world" image.

Oh and now realise that, for some reason, Americans (yes yes gross and general and read my first few lines again, of course _you_ know what it means) tend to have no concept of what irony is.

There is some sense of someone in a dark room running around here, and they have a pin they are trying to stick into something.

Now realise you have no effect on anything because you, like me, are just another worthless paeon (except I gots me super premium membership). Also consider that propaganda works. Hell if I was an american and lived there I would have probably ended up in the same situation as those that are posting these ideas.

I blame it on the Monroe Doctrine. That is where it all began with this country, where we quit worrying about how to take care of our own, and began telling others what to do.

On another note, I find it ironic (as I believe tor may have been saying the same in his speach) that the US wants to make Iraq (and every other country for that matter) democratic by means of overthrowing the current government, and placing in power someone of our choice. Shouldn't it be the choice of the people of Iraq?

In Response to tor (#1966):

The irony, is that most Americans (including the press which seems to be the only 'important' voice to politicians) don't think Iraq is what we should be focusing on. Hell, a lot of politicians don't think so either. I'm not gonna argue against Sadam being a problem, or that he does mass-destruction research, or that he lies. But why not just step up the (already in place) bombing a little and focus on other issues - like the economy.

In Response to coolhand (#1976):

Bush is looking out for his own. It's just that his own are not the people who supposedly elected him, but the people who really got him into office. This isn't about bringing democracy to Iraq, it is about getting rid of the US-hating evil dictator and replacing him with one who is simpathetic to us. And our oil companies.

In Response to coolhand (#1976):

Ah yes, "Democracy: Communism for the new millenium. If you don't switch, we'll overtake your country and force you to have a choice in your gov't"

You know, nobody over in the Arab nations really wants us to overthrow Saddam. But not because they like him. Not because he's a great leader. These people aren't morons, but they realize a few things that we don't seem to see, or at least find convenient to ignore...

1) Suppose that Bush actually succeeds at something he sets out to do and topples Saddam. We then have a "US-friendly" power in Iraq.

2) The Iraq-nation is a wreck. This new leader will need LOTS of money and he will need it FAST.

3) Iraq has LOTS of oil. They can pump it VERY FAST. The US LOVES oil. We can always use as much as they can pump (VERY FAST).

4) Lots of oil in the market makes oil prices very cheap (remember high school economics courses with supply and demand?). Lots of cheap oil makes for poor profits for OPEC.

5) Nobody is going to support a coup that will drop their profit margin tremendously. It would never happen in the US and it's sure as hell not going to happen with the owners of the largest global trade item.

So, sure... lets give ourselves cheap oil. But we aren't going to make any more people int he world happy. We're just going to piss off some very rich, very powerful people who aren't real fond of us anyway. They just like our money, but they won't be getting much of that if our plan goes through.

I thought you all might enjoy this op/ed piece [yahoo.com] that relates to the Iraq regime change.

For those of you still paying attention to what our government says you should think, these folks [www.nion.us] seem to have used some actual thought. I signed it.

Politically, living next to the United States is like having a major car accident outside your kitchen window. It's gruesome and unpleasant to watch, but you find yourself staring in utter fascination.

Of course, in this case, the car accident is still in flames and could explode any second, destroying your entire house.

In Response to DrJohnEvans (#2400):

i have to agree with that. it's like sitting on a bus next to a hyperactive and psychopathic child who has found a knife on the floor. everyone becomes a target, no one is willing to get close enough to stop it, and that little voice in the back of your head is telling you that the little bugger, directly or indirectly, is going to get your nubs sliced off. this goes beyond fear, though not super-fear. every time the bugger twitches, i jump, hold my breath, and gape in disbelief. and the moral is: there is something very wrong with everything nowadays. i suggest we either jump ship or mutiny. egads...

In Response to AsphaltBuffet (#1982):

1) Suppose that Bush actually succeeds at something he sets out to do and topples Saddam. We then have a "US-friendly" power in Iraq.


There is already a "US-friendly" power in Iraq - who do you think kept him in power and supplied him with the basis for his biological and chemical weapons that we are now so worried about?

This is the best argument for not getting involved in regime change in the middle east. When the west does (not just the US, Britain has a fairly lousy track record too) it tends to go wrong.

See also onlineopinion [onlineopinion.net] throughout, and there's a good summary on Michael Moore's site [bowlingforcolumbine.com].

Cheers,
Graham