I was just wondering what you guys thought of the common stereotype that all males who dance ballet are "gay". It doesn't make sense to me, and I've never been able to find a satisfactory answer. Of course, if the answer I was looking for included the entirety of Cold Fusion theory, I could understand that, but...
Anyway, you guys seem fairly intelligent, so what's the deal? True or untrue? How did it start? Why does it persist?

I got two theories for you:

Traditionally, dancing of any kind is considered feminine. Certain gay stereotypes are considered feminine. Ballet is a kind of dancing. How is that for a nice transitive theory for you.

Or maybe it is the only way to rationalize the jealousy felt when pondering the fact that a male ballet dancer is constantly surrounded by women.

You pick your favorite.

This article on ballet's history [glbtq.com] provides a pretty good theory.

It was hit #1 for googling ballet homosexuality.

Also, I'd like to point out that there are in fact a decent percentage of homosexual ballet dancers. So much so that it became a source of criticism for the recently released Robert Altman film "The Company", in which the romance is between the main actress, Neve Campbell, and a male dancer. At a screening at the VA Film Festival [vafilm.com] someone in the audience pointed out that there should have been some mention of homosexual relationships in the movie. The producer, Josh Astrachan, agreed, but said that since Neve was the lead, she got the romantic interest story.

In fact, If you look at all of the performing arts, especially theater, you'll see there's a high percentage of male homosexuals. Why this is so, I'm not sure, but this is the case.

My guess would be as follows:

-Society stereotypes ballet dancers as feminine, therefore gay (following transitive theory of Grimicus).
-Chicks in general freak out much less about male homosexuality, and there are plenty of girl ballet dancers.
-Gay guys wit' da moves see a possible escape route from their crappy marginalised existence in an unenlightened society... BALLET! hey, it's easier than accidentally hitting on the wrong jock
-Thus, gay guys find themselves in the ballet industry. A prime example of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
-Of course straight guys wit' da moves just get stuck becoming trendy club regulars.

Simple. And I didn't once have to make recourse to dumb theories regarding the size of the "groove centre" in gay mens' brains.

But really, what the hell do you care?

You're smart enough to know that stereotypes are meaningless abstractions of the most complex thing there is - other human beings - Right?

And you're secure enough in your own sexuality that if you choose to be a dancer, it won't bother you that other people assume you're gay. Right?

How did it start? The same way all stereotypes start. Why does it persist? Because it serves some purpose or meets some need, or because the people perpetuating it have no access to facts that can disprove it.

Because stereotypes can be used to justify violence or oppression? Big deal. I think we've seen over and over and over again that anything can be used to justify violence or oppression. You don't stop the violence or oppression by stopping the stereotype.

Again, so what?

Next time you hear anyone tell you that all male dancers are gay, you tell them to go have a word or two with the bouncer at the Double Deuce.

In Response to zamphir (#13470):

You're smart enough to know that stereotypes are meaningless abstractions of the most complex thing there is - other human beings - Right?

Yes, I do know that the stereotype isn't true to the absolute, as I myself am dancer (which you may have guessed). Unless of course I'm insane, which is entirely possible. Taking it for granted that I am more than 95% sane–the only way people can really live–I dance and I have had no homosexual feelings whatsoever. Some of my friends actually tell me this is slightly abnormal, in the same way being entirely "gay" is slightly abnormal. I don't really know about this, since most guys I know would just say something like "What the fuck? I'm not a fag!" whether it were true or not. The phenomenon of more homosexuals per capita than normal is interesting, it seems to pertain to all the arts though, rather than just dance.

And you're secure enough in your own sexuality

Yes, I am, I'm just weirdly curious about this type of thing, especially since I tend to see this particular stereotype fairly often. This topic could just as easily have been about male cheer-leaders.

The same way all stereotypes start

Which is?

constantly surrounded by women

There is a certain grain of truth there, fully-fledged ballerinos are surrounded by women a great deal of the time. Women in tight clothing... However, younger dancers generally have classes with other males and/or younger females. After all, if you join for the women, say at twelve, then you're definitely behind schedule. I started when I was about twelve and girls in two thirds of my classes are under twelve but for two. Not great prospects. As for the rest of my classes, I'm the worst or the second worst there, so I'm looked down on just a bit. Of course, all this doesn't stop me smirking about spending approx. twenty hours a week with a few other guys and a LOT of girls to people who think I'm "gay".

article on ballet's history

That certainly was an interesting article. I guess male ballet dancers have something of a history of homosexuality, which I wasn't aware of. I did notice that that article focussed primarily on homosexuality in ballet as opposed to ballet in general, which could be slightly misleading. Certainly there are more "gays" in ballet than in regular theater (I think... could be wrong though, I don't feel like checking the numbers), and more than you would find on the street, but if someone just read that article without reading anything else, they would certainly think that about seventy-five or eighty percent of male ballet dancers are homosexual.

Thus, gay guys find themselves in the ballet industry

I'll accept that. I'd come up with something similar to that theory before actually.

Next time you hear anyone tell you that all male dancers are gay

Next time someone tells me all male dancers are gay, I will ask him why I'm about to punch him and go check out his girlfriend. Not that I would actually do that, but ballet has made me pretty buff.

In Response to MacDancer (#13472):

The same way all stereotypes start
Which is?

Ignorance combined with statistics, and/or perceived statistics. That is, either a temporarily predominant number of "x" people show "y" characteristic, or a predominant number of FAMOUS "x" people show "y" characteristic.

And you missed my "Double Deuce" reference.

In Response to zamphir (#13481):

And you missed my "Double Deuce" reference.

Are we really surprised by this? Trust me, subtlety is lost. I gave it a shot before [goats.com].

In Response to tynic (#13483):

Trust me, subtlety is lost.

Yes, yes. Art and Eddy are doing the Masochism Tango in the Space Time Continuum.

Are we really surprised by this?
No.

That's why I'm prodding him with a stick.

I gave it a shot before
You used too small a bore. On too small a boor. Ha!

In Response to zamphir (#13486):

You used too small a bore. On too small a boor. Ha!

Oh yes, nice.

In Response to zamphir (#13481):

Ignorance combined with statistics
   
  Ah, ok.
   
  you missed my "Double Deuce" reference
   
  Yes, I did, mainly because I don't know what "Double Deuce" is. I'm sure you could explain, but I'm guessing the original mention of it was a joke, and jokes you have to explain just don't work. Due to my lack of knowledge, in this case.
   
  Trust me, subtlety is lost
   
  Yes it is. Actually, I dunno how the Double Deuce reference was subtle... Maybe I should just shut up about the Double Deuce, since I don't know what it is. Still, that's one of the main charms of the internet: people turning in to instant experts as I did recently on the discussion of the word "bugger".
   
  On too small a boor
   
  Yes, very nice. I have a fairly large vocabulary (though probably not on this particular forum), but puns just don't work for me. I do appreciate a good pun though.

In Response to zamphir (#13481):

The same way all stereotypes start
Which is?

A stereotype about stereotypes?

In Response to MacDancer (#13488):

2
Yes, I did, mainly because I don't know what "Double Deuce" is

+2
that's one of the main charms of the internet: people turning in to instant experts

=4
Ask Dr. Internet [google.com].

Isn't math fun, kids?

In Response to mcgrue (#13498):

A stereotype about stereotypes?
No.

A generalization about stereotypes.

I also forgot the influence of Reporters [snopes.com].

In Response to zamphir (#13470):

Because stereotypes can be used to justify violence or oppression?

Right on, brother!

The oppression of the male ballet dancer must end!

In Response to zamphir (#13517):

zamphir,

The poor guy's in 9th grade [goats.com]. When this movie came out, he probably wasn't even born yet.

I don't remember being as big an idiot as this guy when I was his age. Of course, I didn't have the Internet back then, so I didn't get to try my mettle against people older and wiser than I.

My tips for MacDancer, would be:

• Relax
• Stop being so damn intellectual
• Post fewer comments

Consider:
He's posted 40 comments since the 26th -- that'd be yesterday. That's more than a fifth of the posts that I've done, and I've been posting since October. zamphir, probably the most prolific poster on goats, has posted an impressive 90 times as many posts as MacDancer...over the span of 3 1/2 years (that's approximate). At MacDancer's current rate of approximately 27 post per day, he'll have passed zamphir's count in a mere 92 days (keep in mind that this number is trying to keep in mind zamphir's average per day posting of 6.5 posts).

The math is admittedly pretty sloppy, but even if the numbers are slightly off, I think the trends speak for themselves, people.

MacDancer, now might be a good time to lurk.

it is like any traditionally femenine sport or profession or activity that men have broken into; the common trend is to be confused. Since we are programed to hate and fear what we do not understand, we will "make fun" of it or try to cut it down, in this instance, calling the individual "gay"

In Response to Deathalicious (#13558):

he'll have passed zamphir's count

This is why I must destroy him.

In Response to Deathalicious (#13558):

old and busted : kornz

new hotness : MacDancer

In Response to zamphir (#13567):

Two keyboardoholics go in, one comes out!

:-) Finally, i get to rib other members for chatterbox behavior.

In Response to diablo (#13573):

new hotness

Excellent!

In Response to Teledildonix (#13574):

Two keyboardoholics go in, one comes out!

LOL [goats.com]

In Response to diablo (#13573):

Okay, continuing with the math. You average approximately 2.5 postings per year. At that rate, obviously, you would never be able to catch up with zamphir's posts. However, assuming that MacDancer never visits the forums again, you will beat his postings in just 12 and half years.

In Response to Deathalicious (#13556):

The oppression of the male ballet dancer must end!

But when will the oppression of the "straight white male [thecockandbull.ca] evangelical [m-w.com] corporatist [m-w.com] oligarchy [m-w.com]" end [fortunecity.com]?

In Response to Deathalicious (#13558):

over the span of 3 1/2 years (that's approximate).

Why be approximate? My first post was 2002-07-10 [goats.com].

That's less than 3 1/2 years. That's about a year and a half. Technically, it's 568 days. That's about three posts per day (3.33450704225352 if my perl is to be trusted).

Which really doesn't seem so bad, now does it?

Maybe we can coerce Phillip into running an SQL query to generate post-per-day monthly averages... ;-)

In Response to zamphir (#13598):

I wanted to start a new discussion [goats.com] about this "coercion", but "Goats have errors too." I will temporarily pose my questions here, but they have little or nothing to do with the Stereotype of Homosexual Male Ballet Dancers, so please go to the Pub forums and make proposals about the following hijacked thread:

As this website gradually evolves, i'm really enjoying some of the aspects of community-building that have taken place. I don't want to sound greedy nor ungrateful for all of the wonderful facets of the interface, but i'm interested in starting a discussion about further potential evolution. If you've been around here for months, you probably already have a sense not only of the owners' intentions, but also of the users' unique personalities. There are so many subtleties to participation, and we often mention hypothetical FAQs, IAQs, published guidelines for moderators and for meta-moderation, editor instructions, supportive activities, pub behavior, and the convergence of owners' wishes with users intentions. Would some new website characteristics help us to be a happier bunch of fans and friends, whether we're newbies or veterans?

Zamphir has suggested that we might request Phillip's inimitable skills, hoping to add some more user (meta?)data features. We've had this discussion about karma [goats.com] ratios, and we've seen this other thread [goats.com] go off tangentially about posting frequency. If anybody proposes other ways of easily displaying informative facts, then perhaps we could eventually submit this list to the Super Friend whose powers of Web Community Design [goats.com] have earned him infamy as a computer geek extraordinaire [goats.com], in the hopes that he will incorporate new features when he tweaks future versions of the website interface.

By simply looking at my user info, i see that as of this moment i've been a member for 392 days, my first forum posting was 226 days ago, and i've made 236 comments. So my ratios are 1.0442 posts per day since i opened my mouth, or 0.6020 posts per day since i officially joined. Are there other quantities and extrapolations which might help members to understand each other? The user info pages already show us relative levels of lurking, karma, and activity. They give people a chance to reveal (or obfuscate) personal descriptions. What other community qualities can you easily find by scanning the website, and what additional capabilities would help?

I'm looking at my history of moderation awards, penalties, and rescindments; and i am reviewing my original karma score and my current karma. My ratio might be +0.1737 karma per comment, but there are some oddball factors; e.g., i started with 5 karma (as opposed to 0), i had a couple of +1 mods evaporate when the generous moderator later joined the discussion in question, and i've started a couple of new forum topics (which count as a comment, but automatically have 0 score). If we "correct" for these factors, my overall ratio could arguably be construed as very slightly higher or lower. I guess my ratio of Karma Charm(™) to posting-frequency is 0.2885 in units of

(K / P) : (P / D)
(karma per comment / Posting days since de-lurking) : (Posts / Days since joining)
What do we call these units? Charms(™)?
I'm just a few points away from Sentient Citrus-hood. Will we eventually see Phillip and Jon designate new forum titles [goats.com] when revisions to the interface are implemented?

On a vaguely related topic, could we see extra types of "rewards" or "punishments" for different types of convivial (or disruptive) behavior? For instance, what about special avatar features, or the ability to add our own personal tag after our title (in addition to our "From:" field, and different f...

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